203: ‘Rethinking the Architecture Business Model’, with Peter Markos

203: ‘Rethinking the Architecture Business Model’, with Peter Markos

Evan Troxel: Welcome to the TRXL Podcast. I'm Evan Troxel, and in this episode I sit down with Peter Markos. Peter has taken a different approach to practice. Instead of only delivering one-off services, he's also building a product. Beautifully designed small vacation cabins that are meant to be repeatable, high quality and easy to deliver.

His practice blends, design, manufacturing, thinking, and even a smart distribution strategy that uses a flagship rental to generate demand. In our conversation, we get into what it really means to productize architecture. We talk about shifting incentives away from hours and toward outcomes. Learning through rapid versioning and why things like supply chain, tolerances, and assembly should be treated as design problems.

Peter also shares how physical models can speed up decision making and how running two flywheels: client projects alongside a product line, can make a small studio more resilient.

The question I want to get the answer to is, can architects break free from the billable hour? And because Peter is actually doing it and not just talking about it, he's the perfect guest for this conversation. The big takeaway from this one is about what becomes possible when architects are willing to rethink the business model itself.

Once you move beyond the old billable hours framework, whole new opportunities open up. From aligning incentives differently, to scaling through products, to creating distribution channels that compound demand.

Peter shows us that designing a business model can be just as much an active of architecture as designing a project. So now without further ado, Here's my conversation with Peter Markos.

Peter, to have you.

Welcome to the

Peter Markos: Oh, thanks for having me, Evan. Great to be here.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, so I'm really interested in having a conversation today because a lot of times on this podcast we're focused on tools and workflows and I mean the people behind those things more often than not, but, A lot of times we're using tools to accomplish a certain thing within an architecture firm, an engineering firm, whatever.

And there's newer better ways of doing things, and then there's kind of culture wars and um, you know, there's a lot of different kind of politics around all of those things. And I wanted to take a different approach today and not talk about tools specifically, but this is, this kind of goes back to an idea that Clifton harness, a previous guest on the podcast talked about.

He's like, if you really want to change AEC, change the contracts. Right? If you really want to make waves in this profession, we have to redesign some of the basic foundations and not, it's not the tools, the application, the workflows, the processes, all those, those things can get better and, and do get better over time. What I want to talk to you today about is like business models and rethinking how you could practice architecture uh, a lot of times I think people are stuck in firms who have an assumed business model and aren't evolving in that way. So I would love to talk to you about that today because I know you, you are doing something differently.

and in order to get to that point, maybe tell us kind of how you got to where you are today, where you have, or maybe a few years ago of actually implementing a different kind of business model for an architecture practice.

Peter Markos: So, when I was at school, I, and the way I sort of got into architecture, I was really into furniture design and furniture making. Uh, and I started to get quite obsessed about this idea of products and having a product. Uh, and I won some awards at school for designing and building a chair.

We had like an amazing, uh, workshop there. Uh, and when the product was finished, I, I remember my dad wanted, was trying to encourage me to scale it, to make it into a business and. You know, at the time I was like 18 and wasn't really sure how I'd sort of go about doing that. So I think, you know, looking back probably, unfortunately I almost abandoned that.

And then I went to university, studied architecture. Uh, but then I think just, just so I, I, um, I kind of cover this, but you know, don't, don't go on about it, I guess. I studied uni, studied university, studied architecture, uh, which was great. But then I kind of circled back to this idea of the product because.

I, I was following pro podcasts like yourself, um, even, uh, the business of architecture, some of the others, and also lots of the discourse around architecture. And it was very clear that the business model was slightly broken. And I think when you look at other business models, they have a scalability aspect to it.

And there's a, there's a, nothing's bespoke, really. Things can be scaled and repeated. Uh, and I started to again, sort of circle back to this product idea. And I've always just found product designers incredibly inspiring. Equally, I find architects incredibly inspiring, but if I think more of the books I've read, it's always things to do with the likes of James Dyson.

Uh, which is the Dyson vacuum cleaner, Brompton, ikea, things like that. Um, and then I think when I was post uni, I was very keen to set up my own business and my sort of way in I thought would be to almost act as an architect developer, so develop my own product. Uh, but rather than, uh, the typical architect developer model of going from, you know, project to project and or having a new series of risks and challenges, I, I really wanted to develop a single product, which over time would start to get better.

As in theory, I get better as an architect and we find and learn better ways of doing things. So, uh, with that in mind, I developed this holiday le and this cabin, which was designed as a small place. And the idea was that when it would be done, it would be rented out, um, to, as to guests as a holiday, let, um, I think as with anything in life, it was very challenging.

At this point, I was sort of 25, 26. Um, but a few years later I did finally get there. I developed a product. Um, I don't wanna talk too much about the finance and the, and the, how I got their, uh, perspective. 'cause I, I have discussed that in the past, but I think, uh, just quite briefly, the way I funded it was I, quite fortunately, when a competition from Airbnb, they were giving a hundred people a hundred thousand dollars.

Uh, and I actually took that money and invested it and then, uh, in the s and p 500 and then that, that, um, uh.

Evan Troxel: I'm laughing because it's like everybody would just take that money and use it right. To, to do their thing. And you did something completely different with that money that I thought just a brilliant move, uh, in What inspired you to do that? I mean, is that just your upbringing? Is that something you already knew how knew to do?

Or, or how did that come

Peter Markos: Yeah, so it was partly my upbringing. So I've been investing since I was like 13, which is quite, quite weird I guess. Uh, so, and I think when I say it, it probably sounds more, um, irrational and reckless than what, what it was, but,

Evan Troxel: No, it wasn't. It was because you didn't like take it to Vegas and put it all on red on the roulette wheel. Right. Like it that, that's reckless. That that's super risky. But, but investing is like, I mean, for, for s and p 500 style investing, right? Like that's, that's just pretty stable investing

Peter Markos: yeah. Well, I'm glad you see it like that, that that's kind of the way I saw it was a hundred thousand dollars wasn't enough to do the project, so. I was in a fork in the road. Either I don't do the project, but I have the money, or if I invested it, I would potentially could go down in value. Um, but I would still own an asset, a piece of the s and p 500.

Uh, so it was, it was a calculated risk. I knew, I knew there was basically a 50% chance of it working. Um, but it did work. And essentially, I mean, I'll, I'll show you a model of it because I've, I've got a model. We, I developed the cabin as a product. Um, and it's being currently, it's being rented out. Uh, and I think the good thing about having this as a project is the scalability side of it, because alongside this business, I do, uh, private work for, uh, for clients and.

Uh, that is great because you're always learning, you've always got new projects. There's always interesting bespoke challenges, but from a business scalability, unless you start to get more people, I, I personally think that it's quite difficult to scale. Um, and that, yeah, the main way of scaling it is additional people in order to bring in additional income.

Then you take a percentage of that. The good thing with this model of having the cabin as a product is every year, all the time we work on it, we're able to. In theory, lower the construction costs as we get smarter about what is it the guests actually care about. So for example, with the first version, I made it way bigger than it needed to be, and that had no positive impact on the ROI, it was just, um, bit more space than necessary.

So now it's become a lot more, um, tighter whilst also being comfortable. Um, and then also there's some, there's some of the more smaller things, which are fairly incremental, but overall they have a big impact, uh, such as, you know, the actual internal fittings. What do guests actually care about? You know, uh, the, you know, some of our appliances at the moment are slightly messy.

Um, you know, and, and all lots of other things which feed into that, like what type of bedding to have, what type of towels to have. And I think as you start to scale that as a business and you. Two, then three, then five, then 10, et cetera. Um, the potential for income grows quite substantially as well because your, my fixed costs stay the same whether I've got one or two for, for example, my accountancy fees stay the same.

Um, but I think, yeah, I think what I find quite exciting with this model is I could have 10 cabins, but it, so long as I actually structure the agreements and structure the arrangements with the cleaners, for example, so that they're taking responsibility for things, I'm actually not putting more time in whether I've got one or 10.

Um, and that's something I find really inspiring because, and interesting because at the moment I've got some clients and my best way of growing my income would be having more clients, but obviously more clients means more time. Um, so, and then there's always that danger. That you end up in a place where you are overworked, overstressed.

Um, so yeah, so that's, that's kind of in a nutshell, the approach I've taken.

Evan Troxel: So with this business model, so, okay. First of all, I guess I'm curious, like you obviously worked at firms after you graduated and you got some experience working in firms. Was there anything working in other firms where it was like, this is not for me, I need to do something else? Or was it, this was more of an exploration just on the side where this kind of started from?

How did you get to the point where you actually left working firms to and, and started your own practice?

Peter Markos: Yeah, so I, I think there was, so the first thing I, I always knew I wanted to have my own business from a very young age, and I was very driven, uh, by that idea. Even though I don't think I had the prerequisite skills to start a business, I, but I was absolutely determined to have one. Uh, and when I was working in firms, I know there was, there was always, you know, the firm could be doing fantastic.

Um, one month, and then next month the COO would call us all into a meeting and say, oh, you know. This political event has happened and we're gonna have to start making redundancies. And I just saw for certain companies, I'm not gonna mention their names, but certain companies, some of the most loyal employees who've been there 20, 25 years, um, were just let go overnight.

And that was, that wasn't necessarily the reason, but that was, um, further affirmation, I guess, that that model is just not sustainable. Um, I think even now, my income from my private clients can be somewhat less predictable than the income from the cabin because the income from the cabin stays fairly, it's consistently grown over, we've been renting it out for about 12 months, but it's consistently grown over 12 months.

We've, we've never had like a terrible months. Sure we've had worse months than others, but. It's always just been fairly consistent. And I think even with the model, it's fairly recession proof, which we know architecture isn't, because for a lot of people, if there was a, um, you know, if there was a recession, they might not be able to travel.

So they'd say, oh, how do we travel without going abroad? Why don't we, um, stay in the UK and holiday uk? So it's, it is quite recession proof. Um, it does have its challenges as well, which I'm more, which we can get onto as well. I'm more than happy to talk about, um, there are certain things which are with it, which I think, and I'm not saying this is a, you know, a, um, anything easy or it's a, uh, it's a golden ticket or anything.

It's, it's certainly got things which I think just wouldn't be a good fit for most people and, uh, and, and can be quite stressful as well.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. The, the idea of that, those hurdles that you talked about, the first hurdle to me is just how do you, and you mentioned how you were able to kind of finance this first project, but that would be, I think, a big hurdle for most

Peter Markos: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: right. To, to do the. Because you are basically doing architect as developer, but at a complete, in a completely different way than I think what most people think when they hear those words.

Right. Um, which might be more like the Jonathan Siegel model outta La Jolla, California, where it's, it's bigger projects. I mean, they, they, they seem to grow over time. They start small, a little bigger, a little bigger, um, but to the point where, I mean, that, that's also a very lucrative thing, but it takes a lot of hard work and it takes a lot of grit to Right, to, to actually pull that kind of a practice off. Um, but it is also, I think, you know, in the same theme of like, you're the responsible party for this. Like you are making it happen and you are in, you know, in control, um, but you're also at the, at the highest risk level. But to those who are willing to take more risk, oftentimes there is a little, there is more reward opportunity in those situations. And so I, so when you. You say, you know, you have one and then you have two, and then you have three and your, your income is going up. I think what's what's important to say is like, you own all of

Peter Markos: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: now. You have another creative I way of making this happen. you know, the other podcasts that you were on, on business of architecture, where I heard what you talked about, which was how you worked with landowners to carve out a piece of their property and put the cabin on it and, and rent out and, and come up with a, a, a sharing, like a profit sharing

Peter Markos: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: Which I think is super interesting because then you don't have to own the land somewhere else and go through all of that side of things and the risk of that and the mortgage on that. I, I think that's also a really interesting thing that we should definitely talk about because. You're not, it's not just architecture as a product that you're selling and then it's like a transaction. You're actually building relationships with landowners in the countryside who have farmland or whatever, who might have more of a destination, kind of an environment for, uh, a rental

Peter Markos: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: And so maybe you can just talk about that side of things as well, because I think that was, that's really a creative idea when it comes to how this actually works out in the end.

Peter Markos: Yeah. No, absolutely. So I think so. Um, so I, the first thing I did when I started this, I've not got the mo model next to me. Uh, it, it was quite similar to the one I showed you. Uh, when I started this. I didn't have any, uh, backlogs of projects. As I said, I was, I kind of started it in my mid twenties. But, so what I did was I built a 3D model as a one to 50 scale.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Peter Markos: and I thought that'd be a really good way of approaching landowners. Um, particularly people in agriculture who, you know, they're, they're not as exposed as you and I are to 3D printed models. Um. And that was actually a really good way of winning them over to the idea, into the business because we were able to look at it and to say, you know, this is what it's gonna look like.

Potentially position it here on the land. Uh, and the way we structured the exact, the agreement was something in the uk, which is called a Rent to rent, which is basically I am renting the land of them and they get, in theory, they get a higher rental yield than they would if it was just a dairy farm. Uh, and that has actually played out.

Uh, I would say, um, because I think the average, on average a farm will make, uh, I, no, I dunno the, the metrics in the us but on a, on average, a farm will make about a hundred, 150 pounds a year from a single acre. Um, because we've got this with the farm, they're basic. They're making about 400, 500, uh, pounds per month, uh, a bit less during the winter months, uh, from the profit share.

So every time a guest comes and stays, I've got a profit share with them. So they take, the farm, takes 20% of the, uh, income and obviously people can sort of negotiate them that themselves and think, well, how much of this business do I want to, uh, give away, uh, et cetera. But all in all, it's worked really well because, um, particularly in the UK buying land where you can develop or put a cabin on as a starting point, you'd be looking at about a hundred thousand pounds.

Uh, so for me, that just wasn't feasible. Um, but I think, I think, like I said on Ryan's podcast, on the business of architecture as well, I think the key, I, I think the key thing is to use what you've got. Um, don't, I, I, to, you know, anybody looking to sort of do this model, don't be too worried about what you don't have.

Just use your current starting point. Uh, perhaps what I did was I made a list of everything I needed to do to complete the project and just very logically just tried to work my way through it. Um, um, uh, uh, but I think the other thing is when we talk about the cost, so I think I was certainly very lucky when I won the Airbnb money.

I think it, my, my advice would be to anybody wanting to start a business like this or looking to start is perhaps try and build something as cheap as you can. Uh, and perhaps it's something you actually build yourself as well. So if you can do it as a self build, you get the materials together, uh, and make some kind of small, uh, perhaps quite unique, uh, holiday, let, uh, it might only, it might only cost you a few thousand pounds, so that could be a little bit of your savings.

And if you can prove that model works and you start to rent it out and you are paying for the structure itself, either you could go and fund your own next project yourself or do what I'm currently doing, which is actually just getting investors involved in growing the business. Um, so yeah, that, that would really be my advice if somebody who's looking to start.

Evan Troxel: Can we talk about the, the contrast of traditional architectural practice model in relation to kind of what you just laid out right there? Because like what the traditional one, if you were just gonna go start your own practice, which, you know, to, again, just to be clear, you are doing this also on the side because you've diversified the way that your practice works and the way that your income comes in, right?

You've got these holiday rentals, but you also have custom projects that you do for clients. But if you were only focused on kind of the traditional business model of architecture, right? You would have a client, right? You explain it, you, because you.

Peter Markos: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. So I think, so the first thing I started when I was in business was the cabin. So I, I did the cabin, I had it as a rental property and um, uh, and then I started taking on private clients. So. I think probably, probably something that helped me a lot was I had that as a built piece of work because I've since won work on the back of it.

And I'd probably say most clients who come to me have seen the, the, the cabin and the cabin business and been like, oh, you know, that's a part of the reason they end up, um, employing me. Uh, but I think as I can see it, the challenge with the traditional model is, um, you, you know, you, you get a great client, you do a great project with them, you finish the project and then you've gotta go out and look for another project, project again.

Um, and it's the scalability side of it, which I think is a challenge. I personally love working with clients and I think that's something I'll always continue to do. Um, but. Yeah, I think something that concerns me and perhaps concerns a lot of people is there's, for all the amazing tools out there and using the use of AI and how, potentially how you structure your fees and how you get more efficient at doing the job, there's a lot of diminishing returns with that.

And this, there will come a point where, you know, you are not able to scale to the same, in my view, in the same sort of extent that something like this can do. Um, where if you get the right sort of investment, you can double your units. If you double your units, you more than double your income. Um, uh, so yeah, I think there's some of the, uh, some of the differences.

Uh, I, I'm happy to sort of talk about some of the risks and some of the down because I don't, I'm really conscious of not just painting a, um, rosy field, you know.

Evan Troxel: Right. Well, before we do that, you know, we talked a little bit about how, you know, scale, right? Scale is the, the operative word here. You wanted to do something where it's like, oh yeah, a second cabin, a

Peter Markos: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: a fourth cabin, and your income's going up. But in a traditional architecture practice, the scale happens with. and throughput, but then that also removes you potentially from working on the projects because then you have to work on the business and you're responsible for employees or, you know, and, and just constantly working on that backlog and making sure that that's there. if you're doing that, you can't be doing something else at the same time.

Right. And so I just, just wanted to highlight like this conscious decision and, and was there purpose behind that for you to stay involved in design and working on projects and staying small on purpose?

Peter Markos: Um, I think that I, I dunno, I think that the, the smallness is, has come from. The, I guess the reality is of my situation, I've not, I'm not massively driven to have a massive company, but I am certainly keen over the next few years to have like a small team, like five or six people. Um, I think you, I mean, you alluded to for example, Jonathan,

Evan Troxel: That's still small.

Peter Markos: still

Evan Troxel: that's still

Peter Markos: No, it's absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I think for example, Jonathan Siegel, both in terms of his name, his recognition, um, probably financially as well, the, I think he's only got a team of about five or six people as well. And they are,

Evan Troxel: It's small.

Peter Markos: Yeah. yeah. And they're just punching well above their weight, whereas it's, it's much harder to get that, that, that aspect of recognition.

But I, I would, I've talked a lot about income. I've talked a lot about scale. For me, the main motivation was this idea of developing a product and just. Over the years, refining it, creating an amazing product. I think before you and I went live, we talked about some examples like Mont Blanc and, uh, the Mont Blanc Fountain Pen and the Porsche nine 11.

And that's just something that's been, uh, refined for years, over years and years and years. Um, and it's now almost this perfect perennial product which, uh, which almost sells itself. And I'm not sure if I'll ever get there in terms of doing that, but that's, that's actually the aspiration to have like a, an amazing British brand like Brompton or Dyson or Land Rover where people recognize the product.

Um, and it's, and it's, um, it's basically selling itself as well.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, the brand is, is really powerful. I, I think of, of designers like Deida ROMs. I mean, we, we also talked about Charles and Ray Eames, which architects, right, who also did products and film and. Many other things in addition to architecture. Um, kind of, again, diversifying their practice in many different ways, but also just following their own interests, right?

And, and developing that they thought were very interesting. And they, they also happened to come up with those timeless designs along the way with like the, the EAMS lounge chair and several other furniture pieces. It's, it's really kind of an inspiring model as well. so yeah, let's talk about the, the downsides and the risks because, I mean, one thing that you threw in a minute ago too was that you are now entertaining or, or are actively working with

Peter Markos: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: I think there's probably a whole other level of risk that once you take those steps, you've built your business to a point where you can start to scale, you know, other means as well. So, so yeah, let's talk about the risk side of this

Peter Markos: Yeah. So the risks were, so if I compare the bis when I, between the point of having this idea, I'm going to do this cabin. And then finishing it and then renting it out. It probably took about three years, I'd say. Um,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Peter Markos: that was partly because I was work, that was the main part. I was doing my qualification. I was working in practice.

I wasn't solely working on this at all. Uh, but it was about three years. And within that three year period, I didn't re, I wasn't sure it was going to work. I, I, I wasn't sure was anybody, when it's done, is anybody gonna rent it? I wasn't sure whether we were going to come across, because we were coming across certain hurdles all the time, but I wasn't sure if there'd be, uh, a planning hurdle, which means we couldn't go ahead with it.

Um, and to give you some examples, when we actually finished the cabin, somebody, we had some solar panels and somebody came along and stole all the solar panels, um, uh, and, and as well as some other stuff as well. And it. It. Uh, I actually found, uh, earlier this morning actually, I found the insurance claim and it ended up being like 18,000 pounds worth of stuff.

Um, and so I, I, I mean, I just want, uh, that's what the thing, I just wanna sort of contextualize this. I sort of woke up one day thinking, wow, we're ready to rent this. And we had 18,000 pounds worth of stuff stolen, and we knew we would then at Target, and if we were to just put the solar panels up again, they'd just get stolen again.

Uh, so it's things like that, which I, I've got to say, have been much more stressful, but anything I've experienced in the architecture business,

Evan Troxel: well, it's your skin in the

Peter Markos: yeah.

Evan Troxel: I mean, and, and that is kind of the big differentiator here,

Peter Markos: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: like you are ultimately responsible for every aspect of this project.

Peter Markos: I know, and to be honest, I've, I've gotta be honest, I, I sometimes hear some of the architect developers, I'm, I'm not gonna mention names, but some of them talk on podcasts, and I do feel they do just present the best, uh,

Evan Troxel: Version.

Peter Markos: best version IE how it has worked out very well for themselves. Um, there's a really good book by James Petty called, I think it's called the Architect Developer.

Um, it's got a black cover, but there's a really good chapter in that where he actually just lists out loads of developers who it didn't work out for, and people who went bankrupt him, including the architect who designed Buckingham Palace in London. He actually went bankrupt doing this. Um, so it is not, it's really not for the faint hearted.

And I, and I think I, I mean, one of the things which helped me as well was because the money. Came from Airbnb that helped reduce the stress. So I think anybody thinking of doing this from their savings I'd, I'd, I'd really say, you know, plan to, to the n degree with this, you know, probably don't do what I did if I doing it in your mid twenties, you, you probably need some years of experience and working on the right type of projects to say, right, okay.

Um, or a way round it would be to just say, you know what? I'm going to use all my own time and from 5,000 pounds worth of materials, let's say do this. If it doesn't work out, I've lost 5,000 pounds. But if it does work out, I've got a scalable, uh, business model. So, yeah. Uh, trying to think.

Evan Troxel: Or if it doesn't, doesn't work out. You have a, an asset that you can use in some way that hopefully makes it worth the investment, right? Like if you, if you end up building your own thing and it, maybe it's on your own property

Peter Markos: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: to do that as a starting point, right? Uh, at least you could use it for something else, hopefully. But, but yeah, it's not a complete waste of money at that point. So I, I, I agree. It's like you have to do your due diligence to kind of figure out what the next steps are once you build it. Because a lot of people think if you build it, they will come and it's not. It's not true, right? Like the, these things don't rent themselves.

You've gotta do all of the work and it, you know, on that side of things to actually make that part happen. And there are platforms that can help make that happen, but those aren't without their own issues as well. And so you start to have to go through, you know, the management side of, of, and the operation side and the cleaning side and all of that side of it as well.

So are you, are you willing to become a landlord in, in some ways, right? That's, that's another thing to be thinking about.

Peter Markos: Yeah, and I think actually I, I, I don't think I've mentioned this in the past, but I think one of the reasons I got into this was when I was, in my teenage years, my parents had a service accommodation business, and they were actually too busy to run it, so I took over the management off it. So that's, that's, that's really part, you know, it's not just one thing, but that was part of the background, uh, as well.

And I saw, I did see an, a lucrative income, uh, potential, uh, from that because I, yeah, I could, I could sort of think, say, wow, you know, once you have a, a few of these properties, you know, in theory you don't really have, have to work. Uh, now, I mean, sort of going to my earlier point of, I, I actually like working on architecture projects and.

You know, um, I, I'm not just doing it for money per se, that's for me, I, I'm always going to do that, irrespective if financially, if I don't need to, um, work. And I think, um, I think going back to one of the other advantages with this, the scalability is again, if you sort of set it up correctly, um, in terms of with your cleaners and with your, uh, the people who deal with the checkouts, for example.

Now this has taken a lot of work, but when I start, when I started doing it, started renting the cabin out. Um, you know, every guest, there may have been a problem or there was, uh, issues to deal with, or I might have to even drive to them to see if there was, uh, because there was a problem that needed sorting.

But I've started to, to teach certain things to the cleaning team and they. Now, like I've not been to the cabin in about six months, I'd say. And they're fully empowered, so they deal with everything. If there's any problems, sometimes we might have to do a video call, but I mean, obviously we're filming this in August, and August is the busiest month of the year, and I've only had to do one deal with like one phone call, I'd say, and everything else has been passive.

So I set up automatic messages with the guests, um, and automatic check-ins, automatic checkouts. Um, so yeah, that hasn't been easy and I wouldn't necessarily describe it as a passive income 'cause I, I feel that term is slightly misleading, but it's, it certainly has become a lot more passive in the way that it's structured.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds sounds really interesting. Well, what el what other topics are in this whole thing? I, there there is kind of a, a technology side to this. I mean, obviously there's some innovation happening here with, you know, a a lot of people I think, who listen to this show are working at firms who are helping make that other company more efficient, make more money, however you wanna say it.

Peter Markos: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: And by again, like, will, the willingness to take on this risk also means that you are, you are improving your own net worth by, by doing this. And it's not just going to some other company who, like you said earlier, you know, you could be 20 years into it and the market shifts substantially and you're, you're out on the street.

Right. so has that been empowering to you to, has that kind of been part of the thought process as well for you?

Peter Markos: Yeah, no, that, I think that's a really, um, smart point and a really good point. And that's actually something I realized in hindsight, uh, through actually working with. Uh, um, an angel investor, which we can get onto. But I think when I started this, I, I did start it fairly intuitively. I started it from the intuition side of I kind of want a product, I kind of want the service accommodation business.

Uh, let's just sort of get going. Uh, I think as time's gone on and I've understood models like rent to rent and I've become maybe a bit more sharper in those areas, I'm also realizing the value of, for example, a balance sheet. So I remember once I was, um, sort of, actually I was talking to my accountant about this topic, about how do you compare with the traditional architecture model.

You know, you do some work and you get paid for it. And there's little, in that sense, there's little risk. And I said to him, I'm actually thinking about, um, abandoning this cabin model. And he, he was very quick to say, no, no, no, you know, you are trading with that, you're trading time for money. Uh, and I think something else he pointed out, which was something which just didn't cross my mind, was the balance sheet side of this.

So what I mean by that is you, when I rent this out, we make some money and we make a predictable rental income, uh, every month, which is great. But the real value of the business like this is if you have the right, uh, building warrants, the right planning permissions, if you build the structure to last, once you come to sell the business, that's where you can actually really make the money.

Uh, because there are private equity who wanna buy a, you know, a service luxury, um, unique holiday led business. Um, and most of them don't have. The design skills and those aspects of developing a business, but what they do have is money. So,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Peter Markos: um, so that's something. And yeah, I think when you compare, if you are, you know, having additional units, but it's not just about having additional units, it, a lot of it, for example, the models, uh, and the form of construction, all of that also feeds into the balance sheet because it feeds into the valuation of the business.

So, um, so yeah, every day you are working on it. So long as you, you are working, you know, on the business and you're working on the systems and you're working on the construction process and the efficiency and reducing the construction costs, um, you're actually creating a business which is designed to be sold at the end.

Evan Troxel: More

Peter Markos: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

That, that's really interesting. And, and that, that automation of communications with rentals and, and cleanup and all of, you know, and empowering the cleanup team to handle those issues, all of that is playing back into this valuation conversation.

Peter Markos: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Um, whereas I think, um, like, obviously like you're saying, a lot of your audience, um, are working in firms and they're trying to make those more efficient. But actually architecture firms can, uh, are notorious for being very challenging for selling as well. So I've gotta admit that my architecture business would have basically no value if I wanted to sell it, because there's me and I do have a freelance team, but it's, it's very much based on me trading time for money.

Um, whereas this, the service accommodation, the cabin doesn't, at this stage, particularly for the, the built property, it doesn't require me to operate the business. Um, which is, yeah, which is great.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Interesting. let's talk about this. In this new stage with taking on investors, can you tell me about kind of the why you've decided to go that route?

Peter Markos: Yeah, so I've got a, I've gotta start by saying I'm slightly limited what, what I can say because of the certain things on TV and things which will be released on TV and radio, et cetera. Uh, but essentially I've bought on an investor and the way they're working, the way they, they've been helping is in the scalability side of this.

Um, and we've formed this idea of actually selling this as a product. Um, IE through just in time delivery. So

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Peter Markos: orders one of the cabins and we, we've got contractor who, who builds it out for us and we get, we obviously deliver that to the client. Um, and every time we get a sale, the profit, which comes from that, that.

Back into the service accommodation side. So that allows us to grow our units. So we, let's say we sell three cabins and then we take that money and that would fund our own holiday. Let business, and then, and that's the way we start, start to scale it. So it's a, it's a proper business ecosystem. And I think what's quite interesting is when I first, when I, when I first approached the investors, I approached them saying, Hey, can I have, I think it was 160,000 pounds so I could do two more of these cabins.

And in hindsight, that wouldn't have been a very good idea because, uh, the problem with that model is once I've done two more cabins, um, I'd actually then need to go to other investors and say, Hey, can I have some more money to do another? And, and every time you're doing that, you're giving away more and more of the business.

It's not a proper business ecosystem, but the good thing of having it as a sellable product is you, you have the product, you sell it, you take that proceeds and that feeds into the service accommodation. So it's a, it's a proper, what we call like a business ecosystem. Um,

Evan Troxel: Where did that shift in thinking? Come from, was that you, you, you wanted to, because you said you went to them originally asking for 160,000 to do two more pro, but, but then you've shifted now to making it a, a sellable product. Where'd that idea for that shift come from the investor? Did it come from

Peter Markos: it, yeah, it came from the investor to be honest. Um,

Evan Troxel: Interesting.

Peter Markos: yeah, I think so. What, yeah. What's been really great is I. I've been working with ms. They're financing the sale of the bus of the cabin. So they're financing a website and the marketing which comes. So once we've got a sale and they can get us off the ground.

Um, but they actually very much came up with the strategy and it's based on, uh, particularly one of their backgrounds is around, um, properties. And I don't know, I know he's got 300, um, um, tenants. So he's got a business of over, at least over a hundred properties. Uh, and I know as well that from his background that that wasn't, it's not that he had the money to do that in the first instance.

He used smart methods like debt financing, you know, forms of leveraging remortgaging, um, as a means to kind of grow this business. So I think that's actually just been. A massive mind shift of the difference a good business education can make in terms of how you can scale a business. Um, because otherwise for me, this would be really, really challenging to scale.

But like I said, the credit really goes to him for that. That was, that was, that was his idea and, um, yeah, really grateful for it as well.

Evan Troxel: That business education. W did you get that from? Where is that just something that you've had to seek out and find? Have you found resources that have helped you in that regard? Because a lot of architects aren't trained in that they don't have MBAs. In addition, uh, architecture school was, is probably hard enough, right?

Peter Markos: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: like where, where are you, where are you getting that information? Are you relying on, on the investor for that kind of information or, or what can you offer to the

Peter Markos: so I would say, you know, to be fair to myself, I'd say my understanding of business is probably better than most architects I meet and know. Um, and my understanding, for example, the, the rent to rent model, that was, that was me. And that was something I, I thought to do. And, uh, and, and I've got in that sense quite a creative business approach.

But at the same time, I've got nowhere near as much knowledge as the investor personally that has come from, I would mainly say books, to be honest. Uh, so certain books, uh, podcasts, but I would say actually probably say, yeah, pod. The podcasts have played a big part, particularly things around architect developers.

Um, some of the more known business podcasts as well have been useful. Uh, but just constant reading of books is really, really important. Uh, and also I think it's really, I'm not sure what your thought on this is, Evan, but I do feel that too many architects, maybe it might be a UK problem, but. Too many architects see businesses slightly cringey, unnecessary, um, something they don't wanna engage with.

I mean, I'm, I'm just quite interested. Is that what, what do you think about that?

Evan Troxel: I don't have a lot of experience across the industry. Uh, I, that hasn't been my experience. I think, I think a lot of ti, especially with the firm that I was mainly involved with for quite a long time, business was the priority.

Peter Markos: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: and it was, it was the focus of the practice. And so I think the design side of the practice kind of suffered at the, the, such a big focus on the business side because then it was like, you know, chasing projects for chasing project's sake.

It

Peter Markos: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: really an alignment of a particular set of values. Or anything like that. So it was like, be like, we can do it all, we can do everything for everybody. And so in, in some regard, you know, like something has to be the flexible part of the business. And in that case it was the design side of the business was the flexible part because the business side was so strong.

So that's my experience. I you could be right, you know, but I don't have a broad range of, of inputs to, to kind of weigh that statement very, very carefully.

Peter Markos: Yeah. So, yeah, that, that's actually really interesting. I mean, it's, it's interesting to see, it's almost like the, the polar opposite really, but I think,

Evan Troxel: I think so too. I, it's not like you hear a lot of architecture businesses that are really focused on the business side of things. They're focused on, you know, doing

Peter Markos: mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: and, and, it, I think a lot of times it's, they, they say feast or famine or it's like, you know, you live and die by the projects that you have on the boards.

And, and the, the example that I come from wa it wasn't like that.

Peter Markos: Well, I think what's quite, I don't, I actually don't think it's one or the other. And I, I, I personally have found that, um, because I think I charge appropriate fees and, you know, we've got the passive income, that that actually opens up time and opportunity to work on the design. 'cause I do hope, and I do think that if anybody's to look at my website, my Instagram, it, I think it's fairly clear I care about design and that.

Design as a driving force. But if we were to look at, um, the EAMS couple as well who were incredibly successful as a business and Alva Alto as well, and er, and some others, uh, Jean Perve, they had incredibly successful business and incredibly innovative business models, uh, particularly eams much more so than mine.

Um, and yet most of us would consider them as very good designers. I think one of the things I see, which I think is concerning with the profession, I do think it's changing and I do feel the younger generation of architects are doing better at this, is I think particularly older architects. They, they, and it, from my experience at university, they think that businesses be beneath them and that.

Uh, the, if you design great things, the projects will come to you, blah, blah, blah. And the, if you talk about these things, you are kind of some kind of evil, materialistic, financially obsessed capitalist. Um, so I'm, I'm glad I, I think that's really changing, and I think that's really good to see that it's changing.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Interesting. Can you talk a little bit about your investors and, and about picking maybe the right kind of investor, because it sounds to me like the investor that you talked about, obviously they brought a really great idea to you and they have a network and they have experience, and I think those are all kind of endearing

Peter Markos: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: to finding an investor.

It's not just like an alternative form of a bank, right. It's, it's really a network. It's. Deep connections in, in the industry or maybe the, an adjacent industry, like, like real estate or, you know, I don't know. You, you mentioned a few other examples there, but was that part of kind of the qualification process for you, or did you just get lucky when it came to finding a, a good investor?

Peter Markos: so I think it was a bit of both. It was certainly a bit of getting, uh, getting a bit lucky. Uh, but yeah, I, I actually completely agree with what you're saying. So I think when I got the money from Airbnb, they gave us, they literally just put the money in your bank and there was no mentorship. Um, and there was the, and we just, and I think, which is what's probably quite telling, a hundred of us got a hundred thousand dollars.

Only 10 people, 10 or so people completed the project and they're renting it out. So it's not just about money. And I, I think, yeah, obviously money plays into this, but a success rate of 10%. Clearly there are other things to at play here. Um, I think what's been really great with this investor is he is approaching this from the perspective of how do we grow this business?

And he's got very good experience and he's very excited by the product. Um, I, I can't, I, I can't get too much into exactly how I found him and all of those sorts of things because what I would say it's, it's, it's, it's, um, it, it, it will come in the public domain in, in a few months time. Um, but I pitched to a few investors and he was the main person who was interested, to be honest.

There were others. The others were like, uh, it's a bit of a risk. Uh, I mean, one of them was even like, you know, this could either be amazing or this could be an absolute disaster. Um, so, but I think he saw that I had a pre concept. I had a what, a minimum viable product. I was out making a, a, a pretty decent rental income.

And I, and I think he was kind of sold by those sorts of aspects as well as his experience in the scalability side. Um, so yeah. But yeah, I, I think, um, I actually, yeah, just, um, just to add to that point, yeah. I think, uh, if there, if there is some way people finding an investor and working with somebody that it is actually just so much more than money and it's so important to not underestimate that it's, some of them have really, really good experience and they can make you 10 times more profitable.

Evan Troxel: I'm interested. I, I did want to ask you how you found it, but I'm glad to know that that'll come out in the future. So we, we don't have to talk about that today. But I am also interested in kind of that pitch process for you because I think, you know, a lot of architects are used to, uh. Pitching. They don't call it pitching, right.

We just, we just do design crits or we show our presentation to our clients. And so there is like a presentation and communication aspect to it, which you were probably pretty well

Peter Markos: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: but I bet it was also different, right? You had to probably show the numbers side of the business, but can you just kind of talk about how you built up your pitch to pitch an effective idea and land a, an investor?

Peter Markos: Yeah. And this will probably come into more of the typical conversations you'll have with some of your guests, uh, but for various reasons. The turnaround between when I was told that I was gonna be pitching to investors and when I did pitch to investors was about five days. Three of those days on a, I was on a stag Do, so there were,

Evan Troxel: was that? You're on a

Peter Markos: I was on a stag.

Do, is that an American word?

Evan Troxel: No, what does that mean?

Peter Markos: Oh, right, okay. So stag de is where you, you, uh, you go with, um, with your friend who's about to be married and you all go and celebrate.

Evan Troxel: Okay,

Peter Markos: yeah. Yeah. So I, I,

Evan Troxel: We call it a bachelor party here. We call it a bachelor party here.

Peter Markos: yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, so I was, so, so I had a very constrained time. But, um, what I did was I put together an, an investor's pitch as best as I could, which was working through Google Slides and, and pulling something together.

And then I kind of fed that into chat GPT. That helped me. Um, refine that. I obviously just gave it as much information as I could of what I was hoping to get from pitching to the investors. Um, and on top of that, I was, my uncle, um, gets pitched to a lot because he's quite senior in a company. So I pitched the idea to him, um, and he told me things to refine.

Uh, and I also pitched it to a friend, but I've gotta be honest. I mean, when I first pitched it to my uncle, he said, to be honest with you, I'm very impressed and I was expecting this to be an absolute disaster. Um, but I think the architecture training really comes into that because, you know, we, we use you if someone, as you use beautiful images, you're clear with your words, you're clear with your numbers.

You know, you don't try and make it, uh, elaborate too much. Um, you can, we, I think we do have the skills for that actually. Um,

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Peter Markos: I think if we just actually just come back to this idea we discussed at the start of the podcast, which was, um, how I, when I approached the farm farmers, I approached them with a, uh, with a model.

That's exactly what I did with the investors. So I had this model, I, I went to them and they're just much more sold by that because firstly, it shows that you care because you've come with something which is physically made. You know, you're not just, you've not just got some numbers in your head or a PDF or something.

So it shows that you genuinely care. It's something that, it's not something that I dreamt up that morning, et cetera. And then equally they're able to sort of feel the model, get a sense of it. So I think all of these sort, these sorts of things, which are. Integral and being a good architect actually really play into pitching as well.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I, I'll, I wanna share with you something that I heard at a recent conference that I was at. I was in a, a session there was kind of, you know, table individual tables working on questions that the, the facilitators of the, of the talk we're having you work on. And the question was, how do you get to. Trust as quickly as possible with a client. And there was a solo architect sitting at the table said it. There is no question it is with a model, it is with a physical model. The physical model, when it's, when it's right here and somebody can pick it up and touch it, it automatically eases all of their fears about working with, with that person.

That was their

Peter Markos: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: It's like, oh, they can do this. And I thought that was so interesting because it's a psychological answer, right? It's not, not. I mean, in some level it's quantifiable, but because it's a physical object that somebody can pick up, they can touch, they can look through, um, it just builds a connection that is much more of a relationship builder. And again, it just, it just gets rid of the fear of can you actually pull this off because I'm investing all of my money into this project. Right? I mean, you're talking about architecture. It's expensive. It's somebody's life savings, most likely being put into a project. that simple instrument, which we have been trained to do in school, maybe not anymore, I don't, I don't know.

But when, when I went to school, it was a, a big, big, big deal, right? Building physical models for every single project doesn't have to be 3D printed, right? It

Peter Markos: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: be built out of anything. it's just one of those things that just instantly builds a bridge to a client. And, and so I think that's, you've brought it up twice now in this conversation, right?

It's like, this thing was such a big deal. And so I just wanted to really put it out there to the audience that, you know, don't that part of the communications process, right? There's just so only so much you can do on a two dimensional screen,

Peter Markos: Hundred percent.

Evan Troxel: Yes. It can be a 3D model. You can spin around it, you can show images, you can do those things. But it doesn't speak to somebody, I think most of the time, like a, like a physical representation of that, of that building.

Peter Markos: Yeah. I actually heard, um, uh, Norman Foster talk about this because, so, so in his film, in his film, I think it's called, uh, how much does your building weigh Mr. Foster?

Evan Troxel: Right.

Peter Markos: they they said that because obviously there're, there're a practice which stays ahead of, uh, trends and changes. And they said that they were concerned as VR glasses and visuals are coming out, that it would append the, um, uh, uh, the use of models.

But from Foster's experience of working with the likes of Steve Jobs and, uh, uh, and, um, uh, Tim Cut, you know, these people are well ahead technologically and they, they know how to use VR and they know how to read those things, but the thing that he finds sells the project, uh, to them as clients is the model.

And it's the thing which everyone can sort of, uh, get around and gather around and, and, and believe in. Um, and it was, it was actually when it, even when it came to getting the contractors. Because for a contractor to tender, to tender a project, it takes them days and days to put fees together. So they don't wanna just be doing it for somebody who's got their head in the clouds and isn't going to deliver on a project.

Um, and I, again, I felt with them I was able to actually 3D print model and, and post it to them. Uh, and that was it. That was just such a, i, I actually found that really strengthened the relationship and made them realize, oh, you know, this is serious and this person's actually looking to do this.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Well, maybe we can wrap up with just kind of talking about actual, the actual productizing of the, the model. So sounds like you're doing, um, prefabrication, so you're doing some kind of, you know, digital to. fabrication modeling. Can you just talk about that process and kind of maybe some of the things that you've learned by going through that?

Because traditional stick-built architecture on a site, like every people have been doing that forever. Right? And this is, I think, something different because of the, just the, I mean, it, it kind of goes back to the design of this cabin being a monocoque shell and pieces get delivered and then assembled on site.

Maybe talk about the, the fabrication side of

Peter Markos: Yeah, so the, the fir, and again, you know, this sort sort of circles back to the great thing of having a product is that the manufacturing side, the income develops, so does the manufacturing side of it as well. Uh, so with the first version, it was a cross between, uh, cassettes, which were prefabricated. So we essentially had these blocks and the company who built it called Block Build, uh, and what the blocks were were OSB boards and they were insulated and they essentially made Lego blocks, which would make up the structure.

Um, with the first version, I'm just gonna hold up the model. So you can see with the first version, we were able to make the base from these blocks, but the rest we had to make from like skinning plywood. Now that ended up being, um, very time consuming for them, uh, and very challenging and very diff and just very difficult.

Uh, obviously ultimately we did end up delivering the project, but on the newer version, what we've done is developed it. So the full thing is Lego blocks, essentially. So the Lego blocks make the full curved structure and then from that we're able to clad the exterior. Um, so, and, and that's where the efficiency of tools come in.

Um, 'cause again, you know, yeah, there's an efficiency to the, the product side, but, um, of, of the business side. But I think. Now we're starting to introduce more efficient tools to make this more efficient to produce, whilst also not losing the qua the qualities and the aspects which are important to the user.

Um, and I think that point's very important as well, because you might value certain things, but ultimately it depends, you know, ultimately, uh, people looking to stay in a rural location, they care about things like, um, is there a fire pit or is there somewhere to walk? And, um, you know, is it warm at night?

They are the things which matter. Absolutely.

Evan Troxel: It's an experience. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm curious, is it sounds like there's a feedback loop between you and the fabricator so that this iterative kind of process, you know, that you, they're informing you as much as you're kind of driving maybe the next version of your product. Is that, is that the

Peter Markos: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they, so we get them involved. We've got them involved very, very early on. So I said,

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Peter Markos: they, they said, we think we can do this from the cassettes entirely. And then they looked into it and they did a bit of their own r and d uh, research and development. Um, and then they have, they asked me to change certain things in the design, so I did.

Then I was able to send that back to them, and then they, and then that, now they're like, right, okay, we can actually deliver this. Um, and then again, that just massively drops the, the cost in construction. Uh, do you go, are you familiar with, I mean, one of the most inspiring products I find is bru and bike.

Are you, are you familiar with that?

Evan Troxel: I have not heard. I, I'm a, I am a cyclist, a mountain biker, so, but I have not heard of that brand, so.

Peter Markos: Yes. It's, it's a very, it's very different, but it's, um. Um, it's, it's very popular in the uk. It's a British brand. They're f they've got a foldable bike. Uh, but it's something that they've been developing since the nine 1970s. Um, and if o obviously after the podcast, if you do look it up, you can see the original 1970s version and the version today is, you know, a country mile away.

And I think what's quite interesting is it's, it's really start over the last five or 10 years, it's really started to grow in popularity. Um, and again, I think that's what's so exciting with this product is if done correctly, if you work on it for years and years, it's, it could be in some decades time when you start to really wrap the rewards from it.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. I think something that, that strikes me about your design, because it's kind of the shell and this ribbed, shelled kind of structure. I mean the, the Monaco name kind of, you know, it, it makes, it's appropriate, but when you look up tiny homes or you know, vacation rentals, a lot of times it's just like, oh, that looks like a glorified shed, or that some. kind of ideal version of a mid-century modern, but at the most minimal, you know, scale possible. This is entirely different. And I'm just curious how that's played into kind of your branding, but also the, when somebody wants to, like we talked about experience a minute ago, they want to go have an experience somewhere and they wanna stay in something unique perhaps. And I'm curious how that's played into the, the branding and the business side of this, if that's been a positive attribute.

Peter Markos: Yeah, really great question Evan, by the way. But I think, um, absolutely. So I think there is lots of businesses in. Uh, not lots, but there are a few products around Europe, uh, particularly where there is clearly a real care for the design and they've developed some, some great, um, uh, cabins and tiny homes.

But I would say that 99% of what's on the market is fairly basic shepherd huts. But the different, it does make a big difference. So when I look at, I can see on the numbers on Airbnb, for example, how we're doing compared to competitors. So it'll say in your area, in your town, uh, this is how, how well you're doing in terms of renting compared to your competitors.

And to be completely honest, we're doing a lot better than most of the, uh, most of the competitors. I, I would say that comes down to the design, uh, and the, actually the uniqueness and the design, because. What we've got, which isn't going. What we've got, which doesn't, which is perhaps holding us back a little bit, is most people who have a property like this, they will meet the guests themselves and say, Hey, you know, welcome to the property if you need anything, um, just let us know.

Um, because of where I'm located, I can't do that. And obviously it's difficult to do that if you do wanna scale a business as well. Uh, so that puts us on the back foot of, um, the consumer experience. But nevertheless, we've got a really high occupancy rate and a much higher occupancy rate than competitors.

And I think that's proof that design pays. Um, and I think circling back as well, a lot of the time, it's actually quite difficult to tangibly prove to clients. It, you know, design pays, design increases the value of your property, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, but this is a great way of, of this is a really clear example that the more unique the design is, the more interesting the design is, the more it's a nice space to be in.

The more likely guests ought to book the place.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Quantifiable.

Peter Markos: Absolutely.

Evan Troxel: Is there anything else that we're, we're missing here in this conversation? I feel, I know we didn't talk about tools. I think that that doesn't really matter at this point. It's like I, I can, I can tell just by looking at it kind of what kind of tools you're using, but it's, it's one of those things where, you know, this, this wasn't a podcast about that.

It was a, it's about something entirely different and not just striving at efficiencies within the practice, although you are getting to the point where you are now doing that, but it was starting off with a different idea completely. And I think that there's value in that for the audience to hear. And I hope that, that, that's the main takeaway.

It's like there's other ways to do the thing that we've all trained to do, and you're a, a shining example of that. So I appreciate you coming on the show to share your, your journey.

Peter Markos: Yeah. No, thanks for that, Evan. No, I think, I think we've covered most things, but um, yeah, like I, I think, I think if this is something that people are really keen to do, it's, it's, it's, uh, ought to look at an alternative, uh, business model. I would say. Just certainly do it with your eyes open. Um, my, my concern is that there's just too much discussion about how it's so much better than the current architecture model.

I think the current architecture model has its advantages and like you've alluded to as well. Once, once you start to actually use efficient tools, there's, there's ways that you can certainly make that work. Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just about being aware of some of those challenges as well.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, no guarantees, right? I mean, and, and to your credit, like you're doing a lot of work and you're, you're doing it yourself. So it's like there's nobody else to point the finger at when, when something doesn't, doesn't work. So taking that responsibility.

Peter Markos: Yeah.

Yeah.

Evan Troxel: I'll put links to everywhere. People can get in touch with you, uh, your website and some of the other things that we've talked about on this podcast.

Um, but yeah, thanks for coming on the show today and talking about what you're

Peter Markos: No, thanks for having me. Um, really enjoyable. Thank you.

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