197: ‘The Hidden Struggles of Leading in AEC Tech’, with Phil Read and Harlan Brumm

197: ‘The Hidden Struggles of Leading in AEC Tech’, with Phil Read and Harlan Brumm

Evan Troxel: Welcome to the TRXL Podcast. I'm Evan Troxel. In this episode, I welcome Phil Read back to the show, along with special guest Harlan Brumm. Phil is no stranger to the podcast. He's a seasoned AEC technologist and founder of the AEC Acoustics Leadership Retreat, and Harlan is the Revit product leader at Autodesk.

But today's conversation is not about software. It's about the inflection point in a career where the focus shifts from tools to people. In this episode, we explore a different kind of professional growth one that many of us in AEC weren't trained for. We talk about what it means to move from being a technical expert into a leadership role and how few support systems actually exist to help with that transition.

Phil shares some of the origin story of the AEC acoustics retreat. Why it's designed to remove noise and complexity and what it's like to create a truly safe space for emerging leaders in the built environment.

Harlan and I reflect on our own experiences attending last year, offering our relatable perspective on how difficult but necessary the shift can be. This conversation highlights a theme that echoes through many episodes of this podcast, the challenging transition from technologist to leader. This shift requires more than technical expertise.

It demands a new mindset, emotional intelligence. And a supportive community. Yet many AEC professionals end up navigating this transformation alone. Our discussion explores how to better support this critical journey and why it's essential for our industry's future. As usual, there's an extensive amount of additional information in the show notes.

Including a link to check out the Fall Leadership Retreat hosted by Phil. So be sure to check that out. You can find it directly in your podcast app if you're a paid supporter of TRXL. And if you're just signed up as a free member or as a casual listener, you can find the show notes on the website, which is at TRXL.co.

While you're there, sign up and become a member. I truly enjoy talking about leadership. And now without further ado, I bring you my conversation with Phil Read and Harlan Brumm.

Phil, great to see you once again.

Not in person on the podcast this time.

Phil Read: it's not. It's

Evan Troxel: I, I think we've done a little bit of both, but like you said, it's not as good if it's not in person, so

Phil Read: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: we'll do our best.

Phil Read: so. Next time

Evan Troxel: So we're you're, you're on the East coast?

Phil Read: I'm on

Evan Troxel: We, I, I'm on the West coast previously. We've met in the middle at the Denver airport at the United Lounge, which is.

Phil Read: both fly direct.

Evan Troxel: Which is fun. And, uh, so, so this is maybe a little easier, but like you said, it's not as great of an experience, but this is how we normally do it on the podcast, because I have guests from all over the world. In the end, it seems to work pretty well. So let's jump into the conversation today.

We're talking about a topic that leads to an event, leads to a, a way to kind of process, changes in one's trajectory in their career path. And that has to do with leadership and, um, people skills and things like that. So.

let's start talking about that because we have a special guest that we're gonna bring into the conversation here who has personal experience on many levels in this way. And, and so Phil, it's great to have you back and, and let's talk about leadership retreats and things of that nature.

Phil Read: Yeah, so we, we started this in the fall of 2020 because I was at a point in my career trajectory where I needed help and there were people talking to me about the things I was talking to Randy about, and they needed help. And then there kind of, there wasn't a thing for this. Or maybe there is, but like not where it's birds of a feather.

Those of us with the same stresses in AEC and I, I, I, I think about, you know, the, why do you do this? Like, what was the reason? it's really, it was really just the unintended consequences of kind of following the ambition. You get good at something and then you get another opportunity. You get good at something that you get another opportunity eventually, you know, have to, you know, manage and lead teams of people. And it was so nice when I could just focus on Revit, like where I could just drill myself away in a quiet space and nut out whatever the problem was. was so straightforward. I knew every day was a success or failure. And then. The complexity working in teams of people where you're accountable for them and, and I mentioned to you a moment ago, there's a dynamic when you're trying to solve a technical problem where you talk to everyone about that technical problem, you share openly.

They're asking questions. You're asking questions, and then get man elevated into management positions, and now you can't talk to everyone about everything. You have to keep things close. You have to smile as you pass that person in the hallway knowing that you just come out of a meeting and they're gonna be laid off if things don't change very soon.

Evan Troxel: Right.

Phil Read: business stresses. and it's that kind of irre recoverable complexity and you have to learn how to manage it. have to learn how the humbling experience of realizing, chatting with Randy and other people at these events, uh, that I can't. Change anything except how I respond to what I can't change. Like that's my kind of high level mantra. Now you just have to absorb the news and go, okay, well good, let's figure this out. It's either, it's either a limitation of knowledge or information or physics. We'll figure it out and um, and sometimes it's really bad news, but most of the time you just go, well, what's going on?

And when you find out what's going on. You're able to, you are like, oh, that's it. Oh, we can figure that out. Um, but the challenge is the initial response to that information. If you lock up, won't come to you.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: You

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: the improvement. You have to learn how to respond. And for me, that's at least from those who have known me back from Revit days, very impatient, hated to fail, like. Humiliated if I didn't get it right. And Dave Heaton was a great guy. Like he was so, he was fantastic. As a manager, we still check, but I had to learn how to deal with expectations of people a way that was completely different than the expectations of how I manage myself and learning how to technology at a high level.

And that's really it. And there's other people that I know in my career path that have the same stresses. Um,

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

Phil Read: so why not get together? Yeah.

Evan Troxel: so we know who Randy is, but maybe you can explain who Randy is to the audience who doesn't know who Randy is, because I think that's an important aspect to this conversation.

Phil Read: where we've had a chat with Randy, but he's, he's got a degree in law, a degree in psychology, a leadership de uh, those are both, I think from Duke. Then he's got a leadership degree from Georgetown, and he's an accomplished musician, perfect guy, perfect demeanor for this kind of event You know, the technical event we have in the spring, people can go away and talk about what they did at the technical event, the leadership event, it, it can be close to the chest that the kind of stresses people talk about. So we don't share what other people share. That's

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: sets those kind of parameters early on in the event.

Evan Troxel: So Randy, Ben is, is who Phil's talking about. And Randy, Ben is an amazing facilitator of conversation. I, he, I, when I think of Randy, I think of him as a, as a, a great question asker, and then listener. Right, and, and to me he then takes kind of what happens in the group at the leadership retreat and then kind of connects the dots and really enables people to be extremely vulnerable, which might sound scary to those who are, would be looking at this from the outside.

But when you're in it, it's actually one of the most

Phil Read: Oh,

Evan Troxel: cut.

Phil Read: I can be vulnerable.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: like, it's one of those moments where you're like, oh, this is what I've been looking for. 'cause I can actually ask real questions here. So what we're talking about is the leadership retreat that Phil does in the fall for AEC Acoustics, which is, which is Phil's thing.

And uh, so we're,

Phil Read: So that's, we named it.

Evan Troxel: we're in the summer now. Uh, we're getting ready for the fall. There's a fall event coming up. It's happening the first week of November, right? In 2025.

Phil Read: 9th. Ninth, the 14th. Show up on a Sunday offsite Monday, three days of leadership discussions. and see you next year on Friday.

Evan Troxel: At a camp in Florida. It's a really, really great venue. And so now I'm gonna introduce our, our guest for this part of the podcast. Who is Harlan Brummm? Who is a Revit product manager at Autodesk. So welcome to the show, Harlan. It's great to see you.

Harlan Brumm: Yeah, great to see both of you. And I love the topic, like Phil said, yeah, when I was there last year, standing at the dock, you know, reflecting that like, isn't what I need more of. Uh, like we, we, leadership is really hard. Like, and it's not something that you get a lot of training and support on generally.

Like that's one of the things that you learn. And typically it's all like self-study. And so

having this group together to. You know, share ka misrate and, and do it in a setting that is really lets you focus on that. Like, there's a lot of distraction in the world and like, you know, being able to actually focus with a like-minded group and, and through these things is super

cathartic and,

Phil Read: Hmm.

Harlan Brumm: kind of letting you leave refreshed.

I definitely felt that way afterwards. I was like, oh, this was a great week, so

doubt I'm

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

Harlan Brumm: back.

Evan Troxel: so Har.

Phil Read: known, so I've known Harlan a long time,

Evan Troxel: Right.

Phil Read: and Harlan has always been this zen jazz player. I, we were at an event one year, Arlen probably knows no longer invention and his presentation to the event about this. Like, here's what we're gonna do. It's gonna be super cool. Whatever happened, it wouldn't work. And Harlan just kind of rocks on his heels and kind of has his hands in his pocket. He goes, okay, well we're gonna do something different. I was like, that is awesome. How do you do that? And then you get to know Harlan, you find out, oh no, Harlan has stuff going on. That's complex too. He needs like time to just decompress.

And it's like, oh cool. Okay.

Evan Troxel: Nice. So Harlan, you, you work for a company that puts on a rather large technology conference and, and what we're talking about here is not that maybe Harlan, do you want to describe kind of what your experience has been at. Previous leader leadership retreat, which is where we met in person for the first time last year.

Harlan Brumm: Yeah. Um, it's. It's so different. I mean, uh, which is phenomenal right now, a normal tech conference, going between rooms. You might bump into people in the hallway and have a conversation and, you know, I, I often have that experience where that's sometimes the best part of

those conferences

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Harlan Brumm: you know,

Phil Read: Hmm.

Harlan Brumm: running into people and making those connections or at like, the evening events and activities. Um, the leadership, the, the acoustics and leadership retreat are so, um, much more intimate and. You know, much more of an opportunity to actually connect with people. I think, you know, the best parts of a conference show up at

that thing. So

Phil Read: Hmm.

Harlan Brumm: group of people, um, you know, at a camp. So you get kind of the outdoors ness of it.

I wouldn't call it, it's like a hippie camp, but it felt like that at first when you show up, and I know some people probably might hesitate with that. Oh my God, you're, but, you know, there's nice rooms and you're all

together and there's nobody

Phil Read: Yeah, it's just rustic. It's not, yeah.

Harlan Brumm: It's not like au like in Vegas or somewhere where there's this big party going on outside of it.

It, it's actually focused and, And yeah, and you know, it takes a little while for people to open up, I feel

like, in that setting.

Phil Read: Hmm.

Harlan Brumm: you know, the fact that, that, Phil mentioned this too, that the, the big event, the big like out outside the conference thing is actually the first day, which actually helps with sort of almost, I would call it like team building.

It helps everybody get

together and it's, it's an opportunity to kind of engage in a more. Relax setting to kick things off. And then you get into the deep dive conversations the, the rest of the time. And that was, it's just fundamentally a different vibe and a different event and that really made it special and unique as well.

But the topic is also big, right? We're talking about people who, like Phil, you, you were saying here like come from a tech background. Traditionally these are people who are individual contributors and now have to like step into a leadership. Role or a management role. And you know, the problems are different and there's not that much like support that typically happens in those environments all over the place.

Some companies are great at it, some companies are not. A lot of that, you know, I find gets done by self-study. So this is an opportunity to actually like be with like-minded people facing similar problems and, and really I found it fascinating how open the conversations were. Like people were really transparent about their struggles or the things that are happening for them and everybody else else were reflecting.

So it's a really dynamic conversation, which I just loved. And you know, you still have the tech stuff

going on. I mean,

Phil Read: You can't help it.

Harlan Brumm: I can't help it when we're sitting on the porches outside the rooms at night, like conversation going forever. And you know, everybody, uh, of course, 'cause I'm looking after Revit.

There's a lot of Revit talk, which I'm happy to

have. And it's actually,

Phil Read: Yeah.

Harlan Brumm: more enjoyable in that case. A lot of times as well. No PowerPoint, I don't have to worry about showing demos and stuff. So, um, you know, a really phenomenal connection and I've made a number of just great connections with other industry people, whether that was with other startups or um, customers like the ability to connect. Uh, and continue those conversations afterwards, um, is

Phil Read: Hmm.

Harlan Brumm: better than, than what I've seen in other conferences Sometimes. I mean, I go to a conference and I meet so many people that I don't honestly remember. I met them and it happens all the time where somebody will be like, oh, Harlan we met last year.

I'll be like, Um, but everybody at the event I

remember, I know who

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Harlan Brumm: in a much deeper level, which is great.

Phil Read: I think a big part of it is we, like I love the big events. I love the compression, I love the noise. And then I also love to be able to go away and be quiet. And I, I feel like I kind of need those at different times. The um, it's not like putting on an event. We have pieces in place now with Chef Charles coming to, he just takes over the Randy taking over the leadership topics and how we're gonna weave the those in, but it's, there is a lot of complexity to be removed. and you know, we were all involved with the built conference and RTC before that, and the complexity that comes from having sponsors and exhibitors and lanyards and marketing and branding where. All of those opportunities create expenses that you're then trying to chase to cover it. And I thought, you know what? The most people we can ever have is 50. If we have to do it more frequently, that will be better than doing a bigger event because 50 people bid on one bus doing an offsite and you

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: to know 50 people in a week.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: we don't have alcohol for the week 'cause we have ski boats and e foils and paddle boards and canoes. So let's just remove the complexity and um, now I've seen the first year we had it, uh, someone woke up and they said, oh, I felt great this morning. And I just kind of woke up at 30 am and thought, oh, just go for a walk. And I thought, okay, good. No. There you go. No alcohol. It's okay for a week. You have that quiet and

Evan Troxel: Right.

Phil Read: amazing stuff. But it

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: oh, we would have leadership. We would have leadership training at large companies. We had at Autodesk typically. means bags, fly somewhere, live in a hotel conference room with, with people that you don't know.

Go through a check, like check all the lists, fill out the forms, answer the questions, and you get a certificate at the end of a day or two. And think it's, this has to be a, that it

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: to be time where you can really get to know people and decompress and, and this. Idea of de posturing. 'cause when we go to the events and I found myself obsessing over cuff links lunch and I thought, what am I doing? Like, am I worried about cufflinks now? I'm probably not wearing shoes. A lot of times I wear flip flops between uh, you know, from the cabins to the meeting space and then it shoes off and then it's just like shorts and t-shirts and, and let people have honest conversations. 'cause it gets complicated as you go up in your career, as life changes, as kids grow. There's just a lot of stresses that you have to fold into it. And so

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: tried to create a way for people to mitigate that and change in life, and change in expectations and do really well at it. 'cause at the end of the day, we have to love our teams. do have to love what you do.

So there you go.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I, I think you said a word a a minute ago, you said compression when you were talking about big events, and that is, you know, a lot gets packed in to a few days, right? It really is a kind of a go go go checklist. Um, and you're trying to kind of. Have fun at the same time, and that could mean various, various things.

But this to me really is kind of a, a decompression. And, and to go back to what Harlan was talking about, like the way it gets to be so open, like this is an opening that that first kind of outing that you do, Phil, where, where you go paddle on a natural spring and you could stand up paddle or you could kayak and you get to like be in nature.

You got lots of. Great negative ions and all these, you know, the, you just get to be together and no pressure at all to perform or to posture like you were saying.

Phil Read: Yeah. You don't have to be on.

Evan Troxel: And, and so you go do that event, like Carlin said, and, and it just kind of creates a, it starts to create the nest of this safe space that the rest of the week is gonna be, which allows people to be so open and, and, you know.

Dare I say vulnerable in a good, in the best way, so that you can have real conversations and not just surface level stuff, and not just the best of the best things that are going on. You know, the social media version of, of one's life, which is, here's all the cool things I do, here's all the great things I've bought.

Here's it's, it's not that version, right? It's. And, and because it's all in one place, it's at this camp, and you don't have to worry about logistics and you don't have to worry about wardrobe, and you don't like everybody's just in their swimsuit the whole time, right? Because

Phil Read: much. Yeah.

Evan Troxel: what you can do. Uh, it, it just removes those layers of complexity and the, the kind of, the shields that those things also represent, um, so that you can have real conversations and actually then facilitate.

Personal and professional growth. And that's the whole point of an event like this, is to invest in yourself and be around people who are, who like purposed in that way. They want to invest in themself and themselves and, and bring, you know, learn something for sure, but through the the learning, you're also helping other people because there's so much.

Learned experience in the room together at the same time. It's like, I'm going through this. Is anybody Oh yeah. Lots of other people. And, and I think that's one of the, the brilliant things about it is because you've removed so much of the noise and the distraction and the layers of complexity, that people can just get to the meat of these issues and you can actually come away.

With ammunition to do the thing that you need to do to get to wherever you're trying to get to. I mean, Harlan, your experience that you were talking about, I think, I think gets to that. But maybe you can expand a little bit on, on your experience in that, in those ways.

Harlan Brumm: Yeah, I, I mean, I think one of the things that's, uh, so. I guess it is. It's this, it's this tight group. It's hard. It's, it's one of these things where it's unlike anything else that, that exists. And, and you don't have to be you know, like the, the canoeing and the paddleboard and stuff. I know people are like, oh, I hate water.

Like, why would I do that? Like, I don't want, or I prefer a hotel. But you realize like, it's kind of like the best of both worlds. It it's the idea that, yeah, I can show up, I can be who I am. Um, I don't have to get all dressed up. I don't have to be on all the time. I can actually. know, uh. like Phil, what you were talking about there around like, oh, I feel like I have to worry about my cufflings, or I have to worry about how I look or what watch I'm wearing.

Like, you, you don't have to do that. And it's right away that first day of like, oh, okay, we're just all here. We're doing this thing. I'm not physical. I can barely, I don't work out. Like I'm not an exercise. I don't paddle, like, come on. But it's, it's lazy. It's like being in a lazy

river, you know,

Phil Read: Yeah.

Harlan Brumm: like floating

Phil Read: Yeah. It's not light water or anything like that.

Harlan Brumm: not crazy. And then, you know, there's nature around you and it's like, oh, cool. There's a manatee in the water. There's a, oh, there's some all, gators on the thing and they're, they're over there, they're not gonna do anything. Um, and that kicks it off and then, know, it just continues.

Um, and I, one of the other highlights in, well you mentioned the food, like, um. You think, oh, I'm at a camp. Okay, what is this gonna be like? Where, you know, where, what is this gonna be? And then we bring in this like five star

Michelin

Phil Read: legit chef.

Harlan Brumm: to

Phil Read: Carl's amazing

Harlan Brumm: style meals. And that again, another opportunity to just have real connection with people and even outside of the breaks.

And there's also plenty of room for those side conversations

and breaks that are happening as part of that. It's not, you know, this like intense three days. Of, you know, pure training and you got homework and everybody's gotta be on, and you're like, what did you, did? I got test at the end or anything? And you know, at the end of the day, you're just standing on the dock and looking around at the sunset going, oh, okay, I can actually kind of, I need this, right?

Like, that's the way I felt repeatedly. Like, this is what I need in this moment to be a better leader for my team. Um, and, and take some of those things away. And, and like. you were saying about, you know, we just, we want to be better leaders for our people, and we gonna deal with all this stuff in the most authentic and tr, you know, easy way we can and show up the best.

And that sometimes gets really different when you're, you know, from a technical person trying to solve a individual technical problem to like, oh my God, now I have 10, 15 people and I gotta figure out how do I help them grow, right? And how do I

help them be the

Phil Read: Yeah.

Harlan Brumm: great leaders in the industry? Uh, there's, there's just not that many spaces like that in AEC and that's the other big thing.

It's not general management. General leadership. It, it's about industry. It's about the

Phil Read: Ran,

Harlan Brumm: in our

industry, and

Phil Read: calls it, um,

this, uh, it's leadership itself and others, it's not going to learn how to tell other people or get other people or, and it's not transactional. It's not like, it's not. we guarantee if you come to this event, uh, your operating multiplier will become this great number. I mean, we're learning from it each time.

Like last, this spring for the first time, the group of people there for the, uh, technology event we're like, can we just make one big table? 'cause there's kinda like a table over here and a table there. There was food and next thing, there's like dragging tables in the dining hall and we have one big table. then, you know, Charles comes out and he start, you know, he's laying out plates of food and we're just passing food. But I think there's an artifact if, if you're gonna be honest with yourself and others, it, you have to build trust. eating together builds trust. And so one of the things I don't really enjoy at big events is the randomness of going into this giant hall and trying to find where I'm gonna sit. 'cause I don't know. Like, sometimes I need quiet, so I don't want 20 questions. And other times I'm just like, I just wanna sit down and have this transaction with calories and go on to the next thing. But the, the, the piece that Charles does is he gives an opportunity for people, like at breakfast when people aren't on yet, they're just like, Hey, first thing I need is coffee. And then you sit down and, you know, there's, there is a transaction of trust, I think, when you start to have a meal together. Yeah. And having regular meals together, like three meals a day for the better part of a week builds trust. Barlin has conversations, we have conversations during Randy's piece and speaking to his, uh, tendency to be a musician.

The very first year he kinda went, you know, it was after lunch and it had been an hour and a half, and the energy was kind of settling, and, and Randy goes, you know what? Let's just, for the rest of the day, just take the day off. Let's just go out. Everybody go out to the lake. I panicked, like, Randy, we can't do this.

We have to have four sessions a day for three days. And he goes, you know what? Let people, and I went down to the lake and heard the first conversation was about work sets and then the second conversation out of that and people were laying up on the giant floaty thing on the lake, the kind of trampoline, you know, grown guys pulling each other up on this. And now there's ladies that come along as well, you know, helping each other. And they went, you know, I got this deal at the office. And it just became this natural organic conversation and people sort of sharing and facilitating ideas. I don't know how I could, how we would do this in a hotel where you have to check all the boxes.

The Randy has established this workflow during the event where by by purpose, we have two events in the morning, one after lunch, and then it's like, okay. Go for a walk, go for a hike. Go sit, journal, go down to the lake. sit in the shade for a while, and you'll find in the quiet there are things that are there that you don't think about because of all the noise that are important.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, that flexibility, I think is amazing because this isn't one of those mental overhead exercises that everybody has in preparation for a large conference, which is pack the schedule with all the things and, and then stick to that or, you know, or, or, or maneuver to get into the, the, the class with the waiting list or whatever, right?

Like there's one track here, if you call it that. It's not even really a track, but it's like, okay, there's a schedule, but there's a flexibility to that schedule and there's time built in. To be removed and you could go off and be solo, you could be off with a couple of other people, you could be off with a group.

You've got flexibility to do whatever you want. And it's interesting to hear that you say that that was an evolution in the process of, of, you know, kind of programming, quote unquote of, of this conference. Harlan, what, what do you think about that aspect of it and what that affords you or what you've taken away from that?

Harlan Brumm: Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, sometimes I'm an introvert. Sometimes I wanna be by myself for a couple minutes. Sometimes I'm an extrovert and I wanna spend it with a big group or a fly on the wall in a big group. And sometimes I, you know, I want that like one-on-one connection. And that was one of the things that, about this event that is so amazing is that you get, that, you get, you get the meals with the group and you can, you know, be the fly on the wall.

You don't have to talk in this conversation or with Rainey, like actually in the room. But then afterwards, you know, you can develop, you can be like, oh, that was really interesting. Have a one-on-one conversation over here. Or just go back to your room and chill, or go sit in a rocking chair and enjoy the view.

If you need to decompress that way, instead of constantly having to go to these big group, big group, big group, you know, and be on all the time, you get that flexibility. I mean, last year, I think when we went, I can't remember if it was acoustics or the other one, but we had like a game night that just happened. Naturally from everybody's like competitive nature. We went to

the game room, they have

Evan Troxel: Yep.

Harlan Brumm: pong and stuff, and we're like, oh, we're gonna do this tournament of around. Like, and it, it, it was just fun, right? Like, and it, we didn't, it wasn't planned. It wasn't scheduled. It, it wasn't there. But it

actually, the group kind of

Evan Troxel: It wasn't forced on anybody. Yeah. You have to participate in,

Phil Read: It was just like, you could do this, you could do this. And

Evan Troxel: right?

Phil Read: competitive nature came out

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: but it was good. It was all enjoy.

Harlan Brumm: Yeah.

it

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Harlan Brumm: and there was a lot of joy at the

event. I think that was the big

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Harlan Brumm: right there wasn't this like we

Phil Read: I.

Harlan Brumm: you know, constantly be on and worried about the appearance or worry what's gonna happen. And like I said, that really facilitated just better conversations than really I've had at other events or, you know, it's not a training session where people are, where Randy's just taught lecturing to you for eight hours and then you, you're expected to walk off and, you know, take your notes and come back and. like, yeah, this is gonna change my life. Like, it was much more grounded than the realism of like, these things are dynamic. They flow and giving you that fReadom really was, you know, it's amazing. Like it really

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Harlan Brumm: It was like, I gotta do this again. I gotta come back for that event because of that opportunity.

I told my wife afterwards, honestly, I said, this is like, I felt like a little bit of a vacation. I felt a little guilty. of that. Um, but then she was like, wow, Harlan, you came back and I could totally see that you were in a better place than you had been before you came. And, you know, I was like, okay.

Yep.

Evan Troxel: That's a testimonial. Yeah, that's a re That's cool.

Phil Read: aspire, although it hasn't been taken advantage of a lot, like it's meant to be a family friendly event. If you wanna bring child or spouse, we have, we can have counselor led activities during the day. And when I asked the camp director like, well, what kind of stuff would the kids do? He goes. Oh, it's great.

They can catch a fish and gut it. They can build forts, they can go axe throwing. They can do all these, like all the feral things I would've done as a kid that I don't know if we do so much now, 'cause we, you know, staring at our phones, but they have counselor led activity. So the idea that, hey, if partners want to go off and if they want to come to the event, fine.

If they wanna open up a book Lakeside or, fine. it's meant to be family friendly event. And what normally happens is people come and they go. bring my kids to the, i, my wife, spouse, to this. We're like, oh, yeah.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: yeah. I, I expect we'll have some of that. Um, we did last year,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: you know, uh, Sylvia, Sylvia's daughter, uh, wife and daughter came, and then Deanna had to go back to Atlanta, but they were there. Yeah, that's, it's supposed to be that kind of event.

Evan Troxel: And there is a lifeguard on duty, right. That which

Phil Read: We

Evan Troxel: there's a, there's a, there's a, a, a layer of safety there for when for, for when somebody's in a class and they can't be, have their eyes on what's going on. Uh, that's, that's really cool.

Phil Read: an adult. Someone's there to,

Evan Troxel: There's somebody there. I think one of the, the topics that I wanted to definitely make sure we touched on and, and Harlan just talking, brought it back to my attention, is like the continuity that's always running throughout the event that enables you to.

You know, you, you get some nuggets in these kind of sessions that, that are, you know, the, everybody's sitting around a table and we're discussing some leadership topics, but then you can go away from those and just kind of ruminate and let the gears turn, let the subconscious work. And because the continuity of.

The same people were gonna get together in various, you know, circumstances, whether it's around a campfire or on a porch at night, or in the game room or the following day at a meal or at another um, session. It's like, oh, we can continue. That thing or, oh, I thought of this other thing. What do you think about that?

Whereas in a large conference, that's practically impossible, right? You'd have to schedule a Zoom call or a teams call or something and hope you could get schedules to align and on all those things. But no, it's like the people are there and because it's a small group, you know everybody's name and you can throw out ideas and, and so I just wanted to bring that up because I think it's, it's another.

Like the, the, the decompression kind of mantra about this and, and this being like, like I think Phil, you said that this, this is, you know, the best parts of conferences or the conversations after the presentations, and that's what this feels like the whole time. Um, which enables you to get real, but also.

Have extended periods where things can just continue to bubble to the top and, and you can go back and think about it and then you can bring it up again. You can go back and think about it and it just becomes kind of this flywheel of ideas and to me that's super valuable as somebody who wants to get better doing what they do, but also get input from people that you're building trust with and relationships with through this non-transactional setting that we're in.

Phil Read: it's not transaction. It's not like, check these boxes, fill out these forms. Randy knows I have an aversion to like. Okay, here's a piece of paper. Go out and answer these questions. I'm like, oh, feels so impersonal. Um, there is a routine, but then it, the routine, uh, compresses and decompresses where you have meetings in the morning.

I think when we're fresh, ready to go, Randy goes, how's everybody showing up? Gimme one word, you know? And then by the afternoon there's the decompression and

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Phil Read: and I think we look forward to both. And you can't just talk. You can't just have the compression all the time. It's

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Phil Read: It needs to be a conversation.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Cool. Well, Harlan, thanks for joining for your. Short story about your experience at the conference. I think it's super valuable. Uh, obviously we got to connect there, which was great. And, and just to back up your point earlier about just the, the kind of the caliber of people that, that are attracted to an event like this, it is a great place to quote unquote network, but that's not the right word.

Like this is really about building beyond the network, building deeper connections. Uh, and, and so I, I appreciate. Both of you guys coming on today to talk about that.

Phil Read: Thank you. Thanks, Harlan. You're great buddy.

Harlan Brumm: Phil. I mean, I really appreciate the time.

Yeah, it's uh, it's great. Amazing.​