196: ‘An Undervalued Pipeline in Architecture’, with Joseph Lucido

196: ‘An Undervalued Pipeline in Architecture’, with Joseph Lucido

Evan Troxel: Welcome to the TRXL Podcast. I'm Evan Troxel, and in this episode I welcome Joseph Lucido. Joseph is a seasoned architectural designer, turned educator, now serving as the chair of the architecture department at Palomar College in San Diego, and president of the Coalition of Community College Architectural Programs, also known as CCCAP.

We talk about the challenges students face when transferring to four year programs, the inequities that exist in credit recognition and the lack of standardized pathways. But more importantly, we explore the solutions what Joseph and his CCCAP colleagues are building to create more equitable, rigorous, and relevant architecture programs that serve students from all walks of life. In Today's conversation, Joseph and I dig deep into the role of community colleges in architectural education and how they're being reimagined not just as stepping stones, but powerful launching pads for the next generation of architects. His journey from working in award-winning firms to leading an academic department has given him a unique perspective on how architectural education can be transformed from the inside out.

What really stands out in today's conversation is the growing sentiment Joseph hears from students. Something many of us in the profession have also noticed. There's a widening gap between what architectural education prepares students for and the rapidly evolving reality of the industry that they're entering.

Students are asking deeper questions about where this path leads, what kind of work they'll actually be doing, and whether the system is built to support the future. They envision that tension between tradition and transformation is at the heart of today's episode. a key theme from this conversation, which connects to some of my previous experience teaching architecture at the community college level and as an advisor to the same program, is the emerging power of the two year architecture degree. Far from being a compromise, it's becoming a compelling alternative that challenges the traditional academic path and opens the door to a more inclusive practice connected pipeline.

As usual, there's an extensive amount of additional information in the show notes, so be sure to check those out. You can find them directly in your podcast app if you're a paid member and if you're a free member, you can find them at the website, which is TRXL.co.

Lastly, you can really help the podcast by sharing the episodes with your colleagues and by commenting and sharing on my LinkedIn posts. You can also leave a comment over on YouTube and engage with me and the other listeners there.

So now without further ado, I bring you my conversation with Joseph Lucido.

Joseph, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you.

Joseph Lucido: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Evan Troxel: So Joseph, tell the audience, uh, kind of what, what you're doing in the architectural realm and architectural education realm and maybe a little bit of a backstory of, of how that came to be.

Joseph Lucido: Yeah.

I was, uh, fortunate to have a wonderful career working for multiple firms here in San Diego as a senior designer, uh, Silman architect was one of my, uh, favorite firms to work for. We won a lot of design awards over the years. Uh, as doing that, I had an opportunity to start teaching, uh, at my local college here at Palmore College in San Diego.

What I noticed was I would go into school at night and the students were just so excited to hear about the stories of the day. Now, the stories of the day, I thought when I had good days when things went really well, the students would eat up the stories. But it's usually the things that went crazy and wrong and sideways that the students really tended to, uh, connect with.

Uh, after 10 years of teaching as an adjunct and just keep on just story after story and connecting with students, I watched them transfer. I watched them, went into different universities. I watched them go into industry I realized, uh, architecture is so much more than the building. It really is the people around it.

when I had the opportunity to transition to Palmore College full-time and take over the department, uh, I had a chance to build something from whole cloth using all those years of industry experience and all those teaching experience. But I also found some real issues with architectural education as well.

So once I started

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: the hood. We started to see things like unequitable transfer agreements or placement that was in, you know, poorly, uh, recognized or students not getting the credit they deserved. that led me over to ccap, the Coalition of Community College Architectural Programs. Uh, I needed a team.

I, I needed to know was I doing it wrong or is there is a nationwide, uh, situation. And unfortunately, a lot of this is a nationwide situation in which we need to address how our local colleges, our college architectural students are treated as they navigate into universities. And

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: there, I became the president of ccap uh,

Evan Troxel: Oh.

Joseph Lucido: still moving forward with this goal of architectural education for all you know.

Evan Troxel: Wow. And, and I'm, I'm just curious about this, this CA organization, like, can you give us an idea of who, who are members of that and, and how, and like what the participation in that is? Like and, and maybe some of what, what of your, your current strategies are? I'm what's top of mind when it comes to that?

Joseph Lucido: Well, the Coalition of Community College Architectural Programs has been around for about 10 years. Randy Steiner was our founding member and current treasurer right now. and their goal was just that, is to give our colleges all 165 schools an opportunity to utilize the resources of all. So how did you make your transfer agreement with this school?

How did

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: How do, what do you do in studio? Um, how do you treat students who have to go part-time? Uh, how do we build studio culture in a part-time environment? So it became kind of a sounding board for a lot of educators, uh, as we kind of start to look at how these programs fit regionally, and that's the magic of our local colleges.

There regional workforce demands. So I like to think of it this way, uh, and as ccap, we have this opportunity to explore it. We really have a divergent pathway when it comes to our architectural education. Our students can go directly into industry, being a supporting member at a firm after two years with an associate's degree in architecture, or they may transfer onto a university, uh, and continue on their architectural studies.

But we need to address both of those left brain, right brain side of architecture at the same time. And that's where our local colleges really succeed because we're delivering regional workforce demands and university readiness at the

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: So that's what

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: kind of became is this, how do we do this duality, um, as well as, you know, provide the students with the best education possible.

Evan Troxel: Uh, Yeah.

that one I've taught at both community college and university in architecture programs. And I found the community college organizational layer of administration, you know, like the chair of the department and the, the instructors who I, I was on an advisory panel actually for that as well after I had been teaching there, super involved and, and, what's the right word?

Invested in. That what happens with the students, you know, how are they preparing them for those two different paths that you talked about? Going straight into industry where obviously there's all ages going to community colleges, upskilling to, you know, get into architecture, engineering, things like that.

You know, maybe in construction management, depending on the program and. So there's this, there's this like, okay, how do we give people skills to go work somewhere now or, or as, as soon as they get through this program, or they're gonna go off into a university and they're gonna go into a program. And that's where articulation and those agreements come into play, and there's just this huge investment into getting those students what they need.

I didn't experience that at the university level. It was like, we host a career day, that's what we do. Right. And, um, I felt, I felt like that was such a, a missed opportunity. And, and maybe it's different now. I mean, it's been a little while since I've, I've been a part of that university teaching experience, but I felt like that was a big, a big missed opportunity at the university level because it's more like, like, especially in architecture, right?

Oh, students will figure that out. Like, they've gotta figure it out. They've gotta figure out the internships. And there's a lot of responsibility placed on the students at that level. But I, I just felt like the, the instructors and the chair of the department at the community college level were really shouldering a lot of that responsibility.

Joseph Lucido: absolutely. It's a, it's a very different, uh, student engagement process and, and I think you hit two key points there. First off is we always make this association with our local colleges being, oh, you couldn't get to the university of your choice. that's not the case anymore. Our local

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: are really, this, the foundational knowledge that a lot of our students build upon because our student body is so diverse.

Um, we have about 40% of adult learners, 24, 25 years, and older, uh, coming into our programs. They already have degrees. Uh, they already had full professions in some cases.

Evan Troxel: Right.

Joseph Lucido: they wanna do this thing that they love, architecture, interior design, construction management, and they use the local colleges as a tool in the springboard for those next steps.

because of that, we have such dynamic classroom environments. We could have a 17, 18, 19-year-old student who's

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: tourist, who's trying it out for the first time. And they're all excited. And I love those students. And they could be sitting next to an active military member, a retired military member.

They could be sitting to somebody who's already had a degree or somebody reentering the workforce, being retooled. And that dynamic classroom lends to the best conversations because now when we give them a studio project. way in which they solve this puzzle comes from their own real world experience.

And that real world experience shapes projects that you've never seen before. How a 19-year-old looks at a building versus somebody who's mid-career, who's someone who's retired. Uh, they all look at a building dynamically. Um, and they're all gonna digest it individually. And that part makes those really unique stories.

The other thing is the individuality. I know our university partners are busy and they're large institutions, uh, but our local colleges, we tend to get really invested in these students because most of our students have to go part-time. In fact, 72% will attend part-time.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: students need sometimes just that little extra flex.

You know, I couldn't, the work wouldn't let me off. Or, um, I had to go in because of my child had an emergency or schools out, uh, the baby's home. Can I come back and turn in the assignment after class? The magic of our local colleges that we can do these small little flex. And bends and, and, and, uh, if we understand the student, then we understand what they may need.

And that one little moving, that one hurdle out of the way is the difference between, you know, them not completing the program and them succeeding. And, and

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: where a lot of that magic occurs. Know.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, yeah, for sure. When I was part of that advisory board that I mentioned, there were many different perspectives sitting at the table. It was really strategic in, you know, industry people, you know, different types of firms being kind of represented at the table. Uh, and then there was obvious there was people who.

With whom, which the, the community college had articulation agreements with. So that they were kind of part of figuring out like what needed to happen here before they, those students who you just mentioned go there. And so I found that to be also super valuable to get that range of perspectives that you talked about happening in the classroom, but happening for the curriculum side of things.

Making, you know, it's, it's like what equipment do we need to be purchasing? What do we need to be looking at long term? What kind of software do we need to be teaching? What kind of concepts do we need to be teaching for industry and for university? Right? And to give that range. And I mean, I keep coming back to this word investment, but like it really was working on the behalf of the.

Array of students that you see come through your program. And like you mentioned, it's like 19 to, you know, fifties. I, I had those students in my class as well. And, and you're right. You, you get kind of that all sides of the picture because people who have been there, done that are in those classrooms as well as the ones who are like, I'm just, I'm just the tourist.

I'm trying to see if this is something that I want to do and that offers a lot of value. And you kind of just being there to orchestrate it and your instructors, you know, just kind of guide those conversations as they're unfolding in real time. You never know what's gonna happen when, when class starts, right?

But it's, it, it's a fun place to be, to kind of be in that situation.

Joseph Lucido: Well, what we found too, you, you bring in our industry partners, uh, they're integral. So I've reached out to my old firms Silman Architects, HMC, one of the largest firms in the, in the state of California. We reached out to BWE, we reached out to a lot of local firms here in San Diego. And once they get part of this environment, oh, they love it because from a firm's point of view, they're looking at potential hires

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: know who they bring in.

And can they

Evan Troxel: Sure.

Joseph Lucido: in an office on Tuesday and be billable? Um, and we can do that. We can provide those students. But what's nice is once they get in, involved in the environment. They don't leave because it is a lot of fun. As a result, over the past few years, we've been experimenting with teaching firms and what we look at is at Palama anyway, we're seeing teaching firms as the supplemental component to education.

of our architectural education, when we talk about licensing needs to happen within a firm. told the students, rather than just sending you on a regular internship where you go and you organize a library or you shadow somebody for the day, let's build an actual curriculum embedded into the firm because a lot of partners at firms are too busy to take on the academic role.

Evan Troxel: Sure.

Joseph Lucido: be very scripted. So with the teaching firm philosophy, we said HMC and sillman, what we're gonna do is give you a script. Summertime, eight weeks, they're gonna be in your office, 24 students. But we wanna walk through the mechanical component of, of the contract negotiations on week one. We wanna walk about the compa, the mechanical components of an RFP.

How do you win it? How do you succeed? What is firm culture? want the students to compete for an RFP Fictionally, but a real verbiage so they can start to do critical thinking and reading. What is a firm, is a firm's gonna have to do to win a larger project? So

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: that you can't teach in a classroom all the time.

Evan Troxel: Sure.

Joseph Lucido: magic that happens within a firm happens in that office environment. So you take the same cohort, you put 'em in office, you give them a very scripted curriculum, and now our industry partners are realizing, wow, I've got 24 potential, uh, future employees either to utilize now to utilize in the future after they graduate.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: a real win-win situation.

Evan Troxel: That's cool.

Joseph Lucido: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: I'm curious, so there's, there's many like big topics I want to discuss with you, but maybe let's just start with the current state of education. I'm, I'm very curious to get to the point where I want to know what your students think about what they're getting into, especially the young ones who are gonna be, you know, lifelong career architects potentially, and, and what their take is on the profession, the state of the industry, everything that, that, that we could maybe talk about there.

But what, where are we now? I'm, I'm just curious, when it comes to education, what are the kinds of things that you're focusing on at the community college level? Again, kind of always keeping in mind this broad range of quote unquote students, right? Which could be anywhere from 19 to and beyond, like what is a curriculum consist of now, and maybe how, how long have you been at Pal Mar now did you say?

Joseph Lucido: since 2010.

Evan Troxel: So, so you've seen some change happen, I assume. I hope you have. So let's talk about, about like where we are now and what you've seen change in since that time that you started.

Joseph Lucido: Well, let's just talk about the student that's entering. Uh, the first biggest change is the student. These are savvy buyers now. So now,

Evan Troxel: I,

Joseph Lucido: in the state of California, they, Palmore promised allows them to go for the first two years for free. A lot of other states offer free local colleges, so these students aren't just running off to a local university to, to take on student loan debt try to figure out and explore who they wanna be.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: the student, I think the student is the first part of the change. Now what they're saying is, I have got a phenomenal school here. It's all industry professionals that teach it. Uh, it can dovetail into my education. And the most important thing is that they don't like architecture and they wanna go over interior design or construction management.

They have not burdened themselves with student loan debt. That's the big thing that's happening out there. When an architectural student walks out with an average of $120,000, uh, in student loan debt service, and an average architectural salary is $80,000 in the us now we've got a discrepancy here, and our students aren't, you know, foolish.

They're just not gonna sign that paper. So that's the first change. Uh, how do I make something that I wanna do that they're passionate do, financially responsible?

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: second big change is technology. Um, what I think is the most challenging part and the most exciting part software is coming in so powerful, so adaptive and responsive, that we need to make sure the students don't rely on the power of the software to make the decisions.

Now, I love Revit. I'm a big proponent of Revit. In fact, Revit is laced into our program, but we still make them manually draft, right? And I know they won't manually draft at an office on Tuesday. But it's something powerful about learning the, uh, construction methodology of wall assembly. By drawing it, it slows everything down.

It slows the students down, and it reinforces the craft of architecture, the art of architecture. And then when they roll into the digital world, they'll understand this mechanical components in a different light. They drew all those two by fours, right? They had to draw that framing plan. So there's something really beautiful about that technology when you slow it down a little bit and introduce construction methodology over a course of time.

with that being said, by not acknowledging it, you're doing them a big disservice. we mentioned the duality of this pathway, they do need to be versed in building information modeling. They need to be versed in cloud computing, cloud rendering, cloud construction, documentation, um, you know, Bluebeam integration, uh, digital submittals.

So we can't take these things out of that educational environment. In fact, what we need to do is supplement that. I think what we're trying to do that in our own programs and c a's trying to capture nationally, which is just a new version of a studio. That idea where the studio is based entity in which the Apex student created what the studio teacher wanted in an aesthetic kind of portfolio.

That to me is, is the wrong way of teaching. Maybe the first two years as they graduate and as they become more proficient and they go into the baccalaureate and they go into the Masters. Yes. I think aesthetically driven decisions are important, in the beginning, that tectonic approach to construction methodology, which drives some of those design decisions have to be in the forefront.

So that's the second big change. First is the student. Second is the technology integrated with a more adaptive studio. last one I'll throw out I think is a big shift is I think the, the educator that's out there, one of the things that we started to do is. Teaching our edu teaching our architectural professionals how to be teachers,

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: Um, there's so much of the holdover of the sage on the stage when it comes to academic, um, curriculum. I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna spout a lecture for two hours and I'm gonna walk out. I'm right, you're wrong. Uh, and that's it, right? My design's correct, your design's wrong. So what we started to do is really incorporate kind of a Montessori approach to architectural education and saying, alright, there is no end to this project.

So your job is to remove your biases and let the students go on a journey of design and let them fail successfully at something. Let them take it as far as they can possibly push it. Uh, if they wanna start getting into something hyper-specific, let them go down that road because it'll teach them more later on, uh, the in architecture.

Then it will, uh, by shutting them down or or closing that, that road for them. Um, I don't know if I'm making that clear, but allowing the students to take the wheel in their education is a better way to,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: those are three things I'm finding that are changing.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Well, I mean, and that's a lot. And, and again, you're keeping kind of all of these different pathways in mind at the same time. And I know when I was lecturing at in the university, it was like, there was always kind of a tension between the profession and the educational side of the academic side of things.

Right. And, and it was like pointing fingers, you're gonna teach 'em how No, you're gonna teach 'em how No, you are. And, and there wasn't enough time to do it all. And this is a big profession, right? It's huge. There's so many things that you could teach about and deciding what, what actually is important and when is, I mean, that's a, that's a tough job for sure.

And so, I mean, is technology helping you guys do that? Or is this just really an experience based thing that you're bringing to the table as. You know, on that side of the table, like, like actually figuring out what the curriculum's gonna be and constantly adjusting it. And I guess that also leads to like, how difficult is it to adjust?

How flexible is it through that process to make change, to adapt as things move forward?

Joseph Lucido: Well that's, so, but there goes to the education side of the, of the table, right? Like I looked at traditional studios over the year and our team at Paler got together and we said, well, right now studios are typically taught as it's the professor's interpretation of what needs to be done at that semester, right?

They're the studio lead. kind of dismissed that. We said, no, there are four succinct projects that have stackable learning deliverables that start to build upon each one. So the project is the constant. the,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: the lessons are the constant. The mechanics of studio are the constants. The deliverables in studio are the constants.

The student is the variable. So that means, as in a good academic environment, I have built all the teaching tools that they're gonna use, and they're gonna set, they're gonna cycle through all the teaching tools, through all four studios so they can start to build their own individual design language using the same tools.

So an example, the students start with a civil drawing. That's how I'd start in a firm, the students have to read a soils report. That's how I'd start in a firm. All the students have to start with an, um, a, a, some sort of a HJ, uh, feasibility study, a DA compliance integration of code. Now, the depth of those things, obviously that well gets deeper and deeper each studio, the, but the same cadence of that same week of each studio is the same.

This week we're all doing feasibility studies. A course studio that are higher up, go a little deeper. So then it allows them to become the individual that they need to be. it dovetails into our teaching firms, because now a teaching firm says, all right, I know you guys, I know what you know in studio, right?

I've got your curriculum. You've done four projects to a certain depth. Uh, now let's integrate that into the RFP process. So I think that by allowing the curriculum to be the scaffolding mechanism, right, and, and I'm not, this is just old school teaching habits, right?

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: allowing that studio to be the scaffolding mechanisms the students can find individuality.

Within that?

Evan Troxel: Yeah. So, so let's talk about now, like what the sentiment is about the profession. I mean, I know a lot of people you ask 'em, I mean, how many times have you heard that, oh, I always wanted to be an architect, and, and, and now you actually have students who are thinking about becoming, or are definitely decided to become architects.

And I'm curious what they think because there's like a perception of the field of architecture that a loose perception, oh, it's cool, right? That's why I wanted to do it too. Um, but, you know, and then there's reasons cited, and then there's like the reality of it. And, and then there's the real reality of it, which practitioners bring into the classroom.

And with these partnerships that you've established, and I'm curious what people, what, what your students are saying are, are they excited? Like what's the general kind of sense? But then, then what are you hearing that's more critical of the profession?

Joseph Lucido: Well, I think they are excited. First off, there's always a love for this profession. So you're right. There's always that young student that walks in who's been playing Minecraft, playing Sims, playing Legos and said, this is all I've ever wanted to do. Uh, just like, you know, like I've seen so many students bring in their, uh, you know, Lego models or their Sims photographs or their, their Minecraft creations, and they're like, this is, this is where I live in this digital world, and I wanna create digital objects and I wanna create real objects.

Uh, so that will never change. Um, but I think the, the interesting thing is we step away from the idea a little bit that it doesn't have to be just to you, we keep on using the analogy that architecture is more like a conductor and they're standing there in front of a great orchestra. I can't play all the instruments.

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: I can hear the whole music. But I can't play the instruments. I'm not a structural engineer, an interior designer, I'm not a drywall, uh, general contractor. I'm not a painter. I'm not a person that's gonna do foundations, but I can sit there and help coordinate this overall body of music that is the building.

And once we start to establish that as the career, rather than saying, you're gonna be a star and you're gonna get on a cover of a magazine, and I kind of, over the years, our team has dismissed that, which is wonderful. The accolades are great, we more say that this is the opportunity that you have, is to be the conductor to build something wonderful with all these people, a true form of what the profession starts to take a hold to the student's mind.

Right? This is what the profession is. Right? Um, then I have students really wanna move forward and they start to see the beauty in, in that, uh, in that collaborative nature of creation. Does that kind of.

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

So when, when, I'm curious if that, if that shifts students away from the profession as much as it shifts them into it. Are, are there students who are like, oh, I thought it would, you know, like my, my, I have a, I have a 19-year-old and he just wants to be the idea guy, right? Like he, it's like, I, I want to direct films and he wants to go straight to directing films.

Right. Not, not do all the other things that, to learn how to do all those other pieces that go into filmmaking. It's just No, I'm, I just, I have great stories and it's like, really write, write 'em down. They're, they're all in here, right? They're all in my head. And, and I mean, architecture's probably not that different because of the way the profession is in the media, you know, designers, brand names, architects, things like that.

And, and so I'm just wondering if, if they are dissuaded at all by that or if it's more of the opposite, you're actually seeing them dig in a little more.

Joseph Lucido: I, I see the opposite. So, um, we start to expose students to a successful architect who could do construction drawings better than anything. One that is a successful architect. When we start to

Evan Troxel: Hmm,

Joseph Lucido: student that a successful architect can be, um, focused in on contracts, getting clients, answering RFPs, that can be a successful architect and the architect out in the field doing construction administration, that's a successful architect.

It isn't just the single star architect, which too can be a successful architect. When we start to show them all the different iterations of what a successful architect can become, then they can see themselves falling into multiple roles. Probably when you and I were in school, it was the designer that was the successful architect.

Evan Troxel: for sure.

Joseph Lucido: award,

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: the scholarship, they designed the best building, but by showing them how success can live in a myriad of versions of what this profession offers, I think we're more likely to keep a larger body of students in the program because they may say, design's not my jam, but really construction methodology, that's my jam.

Or

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: be out in the field. That's my jam. Uh, allowing them to see themselves in multiple roles, rather that single identity. D?

Evan Troxel: Yeah, that makes sense. And I, it, it also roots them in the reality of the profession, which is that it's a team sport, right. It's not a Yeah, it's not a solo act.

Joseph Lucido: No.

Evan Troxel: So, so I guess next thing that I, I'm curious about is the culture of architecture. And there's a lot of, I mean, especially on LinkedIn, you see this all the time.

Like there, there's toxic culture that's existed for a long time. The hours, the pay you, you mentioned earlier like student debt versus starting pay. Right. And I'm, I'm curious what those conversations are like with your students and what kinds of questions are they asking? Because again, this is a culture shift and, and I think it's interesting that you started out, when you talk about change, you, you talked about the students being the first.

Part of that change. And so, I mean, there's, there's definitely industry professionals championing for change in the profession as well. But I do, I also think that this applies, like it's going to come from the next generations more than it is from the current establishment. But what questions are they asking and, and how open are you with your students about the realities of, of practice?

Joseph Lucido: Well, I think the first shift has to happen in academia, sleeping underneath your desk. Remember those back in those days when you sleep

Evan Troxel: Oh yeah.

Joseph Lucido: to finish the project, right? That was the expected norm, right? And then you walk

Evan Troxel: We didn't sleep. We didn't sleep to finish the project, Joseph, I'm just gonna say.

Joseph Lucido: in sleep deprived, you're baggy eyed, and you're trying to present something you've been working on for a couple months, right?

What a horrible way to present a project. What

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: way to lay out a, um, industry model of creating something, right? Sleep deprived last minute, not having good time management skills. That's what you talk. So I think the first shift in culture is sleeping under your desk will not be rewarded in a firm.

If you, if I was at a firm and you're at your firm and I had to walk in that office on Monday and you've been sleeping underneath your desk all weekend to finish a project, I'm sure your longevity at that firm is gonna be in question. Right? So you just, you just can't manage your time. So first thing we try to do is talk to the students about what does time management look like?

What is putting down the pencil feel like? What is bringing up the project to its entirety equally, but not saying that I have to sacrifice my mental wellbeing, Um, that's a good student, a really powerful employee. And I think by introducing that idea that this is time management. So what we do, you know, and a lot of our local colleges will do this.

We write down the whole academic year on the board. And I put key deliverables on that board every single day. I rewrite it every single day. I put key deliverables, just like I was storyboarding a set at the firm. We would have Monday meeting mornings just like we would at the firm, right? So now you've got this subtext of the firm's expectations of deliverables interlaced into the student's ethos, right?

They're not homework assignments, they're deliverables. It's not about the A, it's about the project. If we want to go further, how do we find the time to go further? Right? And I think that is a good shift that we're starting to see kind of enter in. And the second thing is introducing them to good firm culture.

Right? That's why when we talk about our teaching partners, we pick two very powerful firms because I wanted to show the students what a powerful, wonderful, dynamic bullpen looks like. Right? And you know, that environment when you're in it, the music's playing. It's Thursday afternoon, someone's designing, someone's coming in from a meeting, you want a job, you lost a job.

Everyone's cheering, everyone's crying.

Evan Troxel: Right. Don't.

Joseph Lucido: But it's, it's such a great environment,

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: that's what needs to be celebrated, right? It's not the, oh, you didn't do this, you didn't work hard enough, uh, type of environment. So hopefully that shift starts to occur, um, on a more, uh, national level. I mean, obviously I can see it here in San Diego with our partners here, but I'm starting to see, as I go and travel around to other schools, there's a lot of that next generation that's coming in and saying, no, we don't, we don't, we wanna have a better work life balance.

Evan Troxel: Is, is this some, a conversation that I assume coming up at the, in the organization, the CA organization level as well?

Joseph Lucido: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: And

Evan Troxel: Yeah. I mean that,

Joseph Lucido: that for our students?

Evan Troxel: that intentional kind of shift that you're talking about, and obviously you can't control what happens outside of your. What your classrooms and, and what you're doing, but you are kind of setting a model of expectation then for the students of what's acceptable.

Joseph Lucido: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: Right. Because I think a lot of times, like we didn't know what we were getting into and then what we experienced was quote unquote normal. And then, and, and if normal didn't happen to be good, it was still normal. Right. And, and then it just proliferates

Joseph Lucido: yeah.

Evan Troxel: again and again and again and it becomes cultural and it's very hard to shed if it's.

At some point, somebody's like, why is it like this? Right? I mean, what, what do you mean? Well, we've been boiled to this point and we didn't realize it, it was happening. We'd been programmed to just accept, you know, that was our expectation. Well, Yeah.

it's just like school, right? And school was, was like what the culture issues that they're talking about being in, in, you know, certain places in the industry right now that that started in school.

Right. So it's interesting that you say it has to start first with education. I mean, I'm, I'm happy to hear that and that intentionality behind it. And I'm, I, I guess, and I don't expect you to know the answer to this, but I'm wondering how that's playing out in university. I'm sure you are aware of like that ci arc story that came out a few years ago, right?

Where, where there was kind of an open Friday talk and people were asking questions and a stu a student stands up and says. It was basically voicing concerns about the profession and the culture of the profession and the long hours and the low pay or no pay internships and things like that. And, and the, and the people on the panel were, were like, like, Yeah.

this is how it is, right?

This is how it should be. This is how you, you know, you give your love to architecture and you give and you give and you give. And so like, I mean, what was the conversation in your org, because I, you were at, in your organization when that happened? Like, were you guys like shocked by that? Were you not shocked by that?

And, and then were you deliberately saying, okay, we're gonna do something about this where we can control it?

Joseph Lucido: Well, not shocked, I, I think that's the, the

Evan Troxel: You knew it already, so. Yeah. Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: that's, that's the, the, the underlying conversation. Uh, so all you can do is make change in your own environment,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: Um, all you can do is showcase good firm culture. can showcase healthy working habits. Um, good mental health, right?

Um, you know, distancing yourself from the client. It's you tying that, tying your. Emotional wellbeing to a client's success is a dangerous thing. Right? It's still just work. And I know that's dangerous to say. I know we're supposed to suffer for the cause, but I don't believe in that. I, I do need to make a mortgage payment.

I do need to, it is work. I do have a family that there is a balance there. So that's what we do is we can make the change individually, and then we can talk to the students who are coming up and saying, you need to make it better. And there are a lot of, um, generation, a generational shift at firms that are starting to happen.

Um, that are saying, yeah, we don't wanna, we don't wanna work that way into. More.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, so I, one thing that that just popped in my head that you mentioned earlier was this kind of slowing intentional, slowing down process that you do for, you know, hand drafting, drawing, like what does this line mean when you're drawing a wall assembly kind of a thing. And we live like undoubtedly in a world where you can get any information you want, any moment you want it.

Where you're located. Right? And so how is the reception to that slowing down and going backwards, you know, is how I would probably, you know, just describe it. It's like, well, we're gonna go backwards and we're gonna talk about like, why these, why it's the way it is, you know, when it comes, like, what is the thing you're actually representing on a page in a world where you don't need to do that?

Right? You've got wall assemblies in Revit, you've, and so like, what's, what's the reception to that process of going backwards? Do they see the value in that? Or in a world of AI where I can literally ask anything and get an answer, maybe not the right answer, but in any moment, like, that's a completely different experience to go through.

So do, is there some students who are thinking like, oh, why, why are we stuck in the past here? Or do they actually see the value in it?

Joseph Lucido: That's a great question. And um, so as much as we slow the program down, have parts of the program that are extremely, extremely accelerated, right? So it's a balance between the two. We have AI integration, we have generative design process through Revit. Uh, we'll do cove analysis, we'll do high par. And we've been working with the team over at High Power.

We're doing, um, adaptive, um, space planning models. So

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: see the

Evan Troxel: The highest of the high tech in,

Joseph Lucido: So

Evan Troxel: yeah.

Joseph Lucido: just slow, they'd be like, ah, this is an antiquated program. And they do see in the next lab over, they were doing high power and other great software technology, Revit form. But the slowing part, I think is the intentionality.

Do I like this? Right? It's okay not to like this, right? It's okay. Like, oh, we always tell my students, if you don't wanna be an architect, congratulations. You did a great job. You found out one thing that you don't like. And to a 19-year-old, my son's 19 as well, 20, uh, understanding what you don't like is as just as important as understanding what you do like, right?

It's better to figure it out, uh, early on in the overall education process. Then after you get the, the associates, after you get the bachelor's, after you get licensed, after you do it for 40 years, you're like, what am I doing? I can't stand this. Right? Slowing it down and saying, all right, this is the intentionality that architecture needs to be involved in.

Right? There is lettering, there is a wall, there is a building, there is intent. There's still graphic, there's still standards, there's still the beauty of just putting pencil to paper to get an idea out of your head. Uh, we still teach two point perspective and hand rendering for those very same things. I always tell the students, it's amazing what you can do with a pencil and a sharpie, To get something out of your head and then

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: ai, then take it into Revit, then take it into a code analysis tool. But it all started from this really cool sketch in your sketchbook. There's something beautiful that can still capture something that others can't find using a digital means so far.

But we'll see where that goes. So it's that

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: of something.

Evan Troxel: Cool.

Joseph Lucido: Yep.

Evan Troxel: I'm curious what you see as the future of the profession, like in the next, let's just say 10 years. Where do you feel like we're headed with kind of the new tools that are being introduced? Also really intentionally preparing people to become architects. Like, uh, you know, there's, there's obviously you're planning a lot for placing people in productive jobs.

Right? And I'm also curious kind of from an entrepreneurship standpoint, if you have students who are maybe more geared towards starting their own firms, potentially, you know, maybe it's too early to tell, but, but there's, this kind of, is a different mindset there when it comes to like, I'm gonna go off and, and do this thing, versus I'm gonna go work somewhere at a desk and be a part of a larger team.

But also, like, what, where do, how do you see the, the profession itself shifting in the next few years?

Joseph Lucido: That's a great question. Um, this is a great point to introduce how we've been working. CCAP has been working with the A CSA, um, CCAP has been working with ncarb. Um, we're looking at these changes and shifts that are occurring. Our local colleges are becoming more foundational institutions, funneling students into A CSA schools and NAB accredited schools.

Having ncarb listen to us about what we can do in the classroom is an amazing shift. And, and I guess that leads us to where we're going. I think the profession for a long time these intentional or unintentional gatekeeping mechanisms. And I think the shift in our education over the next 10 years is gonna blow those gatekeeping over.

I think ncarb be addressing competencies through the, uh, the, the new competency standards. I think the A CSA addressing how they do equitable transfer agreements is gonna open up this profession as I think it should, because I think that's the power, right? So as we get this shift in this new practitioner, hopefully we'll start to see, uh, a larger type of building come out of this, right?

Evan Troxel: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: uh, regional practitioner, right? That coupled with this, you know, global climate crisis that we're facing, I think what you're gonna see in the next 10 years is less of this, uh, homogenized building construction methodology, right? And it's gonna be more regional construction building methodology based upon climate problems that we have in that particular area.

Flooding in New Orleans, fires in Los Angeles. Our construction methodology needs to address how climate is gonna, how the climate will affect the buildings over the long haul. As a result, our education needs to respond to these regional demands in construction, right? I think those things are gonna be the two big powerful entities.

One, removing some of these, uh, hurdles and getting more into the profession. Two, just the changing of the overall climate is gonna affect how we build. And the third and most powerful will be, of course, computer technology and computer modeling. we can build it before we build it. We can study it before we can build it.

Uh, I think that's gonna lead us to start looking at disassembly. How do we disassemble the building once the building is done? How do we become, use these buildings, an adaptive reuse model? So I think the role of the architect is gonna be even more important later on down the road, uh, as this building inventory needs to be kind of revamped all altogether to, to address climate, the climate, uh,

Evan Troxel: I think one of the big disconnects is this, and, and I, I know what, why it's like this, but I think one of the disconnects is the, where the value of the architect is. And I think this is something that architecture has fumbled. I mean, I don't know, you know, for a long time when it comes to dealing with clients and what the value of architecture is and, and also who has access to architecture, right?

Cap capital a architecture, um. When it comes to clients, you know, it's like to 1% of the 1% who can actually afford to, to build buildings and, and therefore, you know, most people just go shopping for architecture and, and they find they fit their life into a building rather than the other way around. What do you tell your students when it comes to that?

Because like when we, we talk about modeling and we talk about drawing and we talk about level of detail and, and all of these things that, you know, control, control, control, control. And the way that you control things is by literally doing it from beginning to end, right? It's like that napkin sketch all the way to an LOD three 50 BIM model that, you know, goes in for a permit set and then the contractor says, well, you did it wrong, right?

Like, we're gonna do it again. Um, and they do, they need to do it again because it, we're not builders and, and so where, where we fit into the chain, it's a topic that comes up a lot on this podcast is I. Like the, the misalignment of value of the training of an architect and what they bring to a project.

Again, like thinking of the whole ecosystem, right? You've got engineers and contractors and owners and jurisdictions and all of these different things. This seems to me like it's gotta be something that starts to change in school early because the value of the, of the architect is in that intent, and it's in that, you know, where you're assimilating and, and turning all of those ideas into something formal

Joseph Lucido: yeah.

Evan Troxel: eventually going to get built.

But yet we still hang on to kind of drafting and modeling and doing these, these parts where it's like we're competing against time, which is never a, a great thing to compete against when it comes for good design. I mean, more time is better and I, I don't really mean to. Qualify it or quantify it in, in, in time.

But I mean, I guess that also goes into experience, but like what do you tell students when it, where like what, what, what is an architect? What does an architect do? Where is the value? And how can we start to kind of address the shifts that I think need to happen in the profession when it comes to like where our value actually manifests into getting paid for that thing as a professional?

Joseph Lucido: Boy, that's a great question. Um.

Evan Troxel: It's a big one. Sorry.

Joseph Lucido: that's a giant question. Um, I guess the best thing we can do as educators is show them the power of good design. Right? If you wanted a general contractor, you can hire a general contractor, and that's saying that they can't do good design. I'm just saying the power of an architect is that they're gonna take each one of those players, the client,

Evan Troxel: That, orchestration that you talked about earlier.

Joseph Lucido: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: The conducting Right.

Joseph Lucido: sitting in the middle with all of those people that are at that orchestra all playing a small role. The population, the public that's gonna use that building. It's your job to see the big connection, all the pieces and how they're gonna come together. And if that means you need to pick up a hammer and learn to frame, then do it.

It. 'cause maybe what you're building needs that kind of attention. If that means that you need to work on your presentation skills so you can convince a local jurisdiction that this building is important, then that's a skill set that you need to bring to the table. I think by allowing the architectural students to express their own drive and willingness to define this, and not just the design, the capital A designers, gonna get better buildings, right?

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: more architects who can do more things, who are we better versed? And I think that's a, a powerful place to be in, right? Um, I always use this example to a student, and maybe this helps, maybe this doesn't. I have a lot of students who come in and retool. One student was a dental hygienist she's like, I widely wanna be an architect.

I'm like, great, you could do it. She's like, but I've been a dental hygienist for years. I don't know. These two things don't mix. I'm like, they absolutely do. Because I'm sure there's an architect bidding for a job to do a remodel in an office for a dentist, and you're gonna be the number one candidate they're gonna interview because you can sit in both of those arenas and she got a big smile on her face.

Right? And of course, years later she told me that she ended up in a different kind of practice, but she's still doing medical offices, right? So we don't know our power until we're in that room, right? Building something better. We don't know our individuality as designers until we're placed in the environment where we can shine.

Right? I love that idea that we're all unique, but we can all be a part of this profession. And it doesn't have to be just the way we've been taught, right? It doesn't have to be architecture with capital A. It could be somebody inventing the next wall assembly, somebody out in the field learning a better tool.

So I think that's the, to me, that's the, the way I would go with that.

Evan Troxel: When you talk about this conducting an orchestration kind of analogy, uh, how much emphasis do you put on communication? Because I think that's what I think of when I think of somebody going out and facilitating that conversation that you just talked about happening for a, you know, remodeling of a dental office and being that candidate, like to have that expertise in the right place at the right time is all about delivering what needs to be communicated.

Obviously, drawings and graphics and all those things are communication. Uh, and, and when we were in school, it was crits, right? It was like the, when you were in front of a jury and you had to defend your project, present it and defend it. But that was just like a point on the timeline. I mean, I think we were all kind of learning when we had those desk crits every day in Studio two, but it wasn't like, this is the goal of this, but it was really like talking about your ideas and working through things, you know, show your work kind of a thing.

But, but this idea of communication, I mean, the, the older I get, the more I've always realized that like, that was my primary job was to communicate. And I mean, sell is kind of a dirty word in architecture, but it's, it's, it's the reality. Like that's what you're doing is, is selling design and sell and, and, and building consensus moving forward, getting people to align so that we can make this thing in reality.

How much of that comes into what you're talking about with students and the importance of being that communicator, that orchestrator, like knowing what the different parts are and how they fit together so that they can communicate to, uh, an uneducated owner who doesn't have to go through this process on a regular basis.

Joseph Lucido: Well, I think you and I had similar career paths. That was my job. My job was always to make the presentation, uh, to, to, to sell the RFP, to, uh, talk the client off the ledge, uh, you know, and to move the project forward. So, yes, I, I think. Se you know, you saying the word, you know, sell, but I think it's a great word.

I think that's what we do as architects. Right. You

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

Joseph Lucido: don't have to,

Evan Troxel: absolutely.

Joseph Lucido: uh, you know, we have to pay the bills. Right. Um, as, when it comes to a student's point of view, um, we've transitioned from the full presentations we still do for presentations. Uh, then what we also do is we do smaller presentations, and then we have, uh, regional architects come in from the community and they do one-on-one desk critiques with the students.

Uh, so the students can practice getting red line sets and talking through their sets. And it's amazing how many people will come out. Uh, we, you know, we just did one, two weeks ago and we had about 15 architects, interior designers and general contractors come out and they'll sit with the students and they'll work them through, work with their projects.

do we practice that? Yes. Right. What we do say is only you can present this project, so if only you can present it. Then only you can be passionate enough to have somebody else believe in it. Right?

Evan Troxel: Mm.

Joseph Lucido: and so that means they have to work with their fellow peers. They have to work with these architects.

When they sit at that table to articulate their projects, um, they have to believe in themselves enough to have somebody else believe in their project.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: just something that takes time. I think as you age you start to see, you know, the power in that, you know, it takes, takes quite a few years. A great great friend of mine once said, you know, architecture is a practice because it takes a lifetime to master.

Right? I

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: great is that? Right? But, um.

Evan Troxel: Do, do you get students come back and, and show, I, I'm trying to figure the right way to frame this question, but like, how, how do they come back disillusioned sometimes. Do they come back like even more excited? Like, I didn't even know what was, what was possible out there. I'm just curious kind of what that spectrum is like from, from your experience being so close to the, to the medal as it were.

Joseph Lucido: Well, we do, we have a lot of students come back. In fact, that's the rule at Palama College. Um, the one of the rules is we will give you everything, but you need to come back and sit with the rest of the students. I, we keep on saying, this isn't my program, this isn't the team's program. This is your program.

We're, we're gonna hold it for so many years. I'm gonna be retired in Bora Bora one day or Tahiti, and you guys are

Evan Troxel: Absolutely.

Joseph Lucido: over and I want you to give it the same kind of love and attention that I did, uh, hopefully that I helped build. Um, so we tell them with intentionality that they, they're part of this community.

And it doesn't stop at the degree. And now we have students come back and do those desk critiques. We've got students that come back that are licensed. We've got students that come back that are at firms and they do have that excitement because they're back where it all started. And they're like, oh, Joe says this.

Don't worry about that. Do this instead. Or, oh, we had a opening in this, uh, in our firm. Why don't you come sit with me? So it's really cool because I know community college, but it is that, it is the community teaching ourselves what we need regionally. Right? It's my students coming back and saying, Joe, oh my gosh, something changed.

You gotta put this into the, into the classroom environment. Joe, did you try this new software? This is really cool. we, we are really excited now to launch something brand new. College is now gonna offer an additional two years so our students can continue on and get a Bachelor's of Science in building performance and environmental design.

Um, it's gonna continue on their architectural studies. It will still be a pathway to licensure. Uh, it's still a, a, a degree that'll move them into the architecture profession, but we're changing how we teach that degree as well. And so exciting is when we launched this in fall 2026, um, we did a soft launch to the students out there in our network and LinkedIn and you won't believe how many students, you know, called back up and said, when is it going on?

I wanna come back to Palomar. And that was so exciting because is that, that, um, that call and response that you always wish that you can have as an educator. You know, did I do

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

Joseph Lucido: right? And to get all these people excited to come to our baccalaureate now, uh, it was a great, um, it was a great moment in that community environment.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

I mean, that's the difference between a transaction and a relationship, right? It's like you've built a relationship by having that real strong community aspect to the program. That's really cool to hear. I'm curious what students think about licensure these days. Are you hearing any sediment about about that?

Like are they interested in getting licensed? If so, or if not, why not? I mean, obviously it's a choice that people get to make once they get through school or through their experience that they need to obtain that, and it's a whole other thing all in itself. It's a huge thing. What do they think?

Joseph Lucido: Well, it, it was great. You know, when I first took over this program, um, there was not a lot of interest. There really wasn't something that wasn't, they just wanted to transfer. and I want to commend NCARB for really, um, opening up that process to our local colleges, getting people out there to talk to students and how they can start that pathway earlier.

I gotta come in and the education committee in looking at the competencies and reevaluating how we test for licensure. Um, I think when we reevaluate how competencies come into play, you're gonna see that your local colleges actually deliver a majority of those competencies just in the first two years.

Now to what level and to what breadth? Well, that's something that NCARB will have to decide, but we're gonna see that we do play an integral role into licensure because when the students can see their programs are part of that pathway, then they're more excited to be a longman for that ride to be on that pathway themselves.

Um, most of our students currently, uh, when they go on to a accredited school to a b ARC menu, a part-time student could take four years. A transfer agreement that puts 'em at second year is another eight years. Maybe they go into a firm nine years, 10 years until they can possibly see licensure.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: too daunting.

It's a decade of your life trying to get this thing. with this new evaluation of competencies. How competencies can be delivered, uh, that may bring that goal to a more, um, an approachable number for a lot of students. So with that in mind, they're very excited to continue on with their, with their process.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

I feel like in the last 10 years it was like, uh, because of the technology option for a lot of students, or not students, but you know, people in the profession to move outside of the profession to maybe go faster. I. In technology. Right? Go work for a, a startup in the a EC space pays better. Um, you know, they're, they're working on cool high tech stuff.

Um, I'm, I'm just curious from, you know, are you seeing students want to pursue maybe those kinds of paths as well? Or, or are you seeing them really sticking with the architecture thing and, and if they are, like, are I, I guess what I, what I, what I wanted to say when I started that comment was like, I heard a lot of people just saying like, I don't need to get licensed.

I can go do this other thing without all the risk Right. Of licensure and stamping drawings. Like still the goal of an architect is not to stamp drawings, right? So even if you get your license, you, you really don't wanna stamp those drawings if you don't have to, right? 'cause you're, you're, you're basically signing up for all that liability.

But, but I'm just curious like what the sentiment is around, around that when there are so many more options nowadays, even with an architectural education.

Joseph Lucido: the, well, the architectural education is a phenomenal education because we're really designing critical thinkers and adaptive thinkers, right? we're designing

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: can look at a problem and solve it in a myriad of different ways with listening to outside influences, uh, being that collaborative person, that conductor, so to speak.

So I can see

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: a lot of them are pulled outside of architecture, uh, outside of the design arena, uh, into other things for sure. I just, when the students, when they start down the road, you know, I just tell them they have to follow their passion. If, if a firm looks as licensure as the only tool to a raise or a promotion,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: we're gonna lose people,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: the reality of it. Um. If a firm looks at the candidate and says, wow, I need that type of thinker, I need that type of person. Uh, we're gonna gain more practitioners, more people, and then more opportunities towards licensure if we're still, um, if we're still, uh, arguing about how education happens in a firm, because we as a, as a team have never organized that we're gonna lose people, right?

If we're telling, if the universities are telling firms that they need to continue on their education in order to complete licensure, but the firm says, you don't teach these students enough to make them useful, and there's this big disconnect in who's teaching what win and licensure is the end result.

And we can't, as a profession, organize ourselves, then we're gonna lose candidates to other industries. If

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: that and say, all right, these competencies as an example, or these, these teaching tools are, need to be happening at a firm level, and they're quantifiable and they're, and they're something that comes with a rubric.

Then we're gonna gain people because now we can all be held accountable. So it's just really needs that we need to have a nice, frank conversation of what is education? How does it happen, and do you want people to continue on? If you want them to continue on, then you need to make that lane as wide as possible so everyone and all their different variables can get onto that licensure pathway to continue on.

And I think that's what NCARB's goal really is. Uh, so I hopefully in the next 10 years when these new ideas come into play, these new testing modalities come into play and competency modalities come into play. Hopefully that wane lane widens and we'll see more people go back into that architecture profession and not pulled into other things for economic reasons.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

I mean, as you're talking about, about these things, I think how slowly they change, right? It's like, like in the next 10 years, we'll, new ways to do this and that, and, and, and meanwhile in the tech side of things, it's like there's a new model out and it changes everything. Uh, and there's this, there's those two sides of the reality, right?

And, and students. Well, I'm curious what they think about all the new tools that are just literally popping up within the two years that they're in your program. It's like massive changes there. And at the same time, our industry is like so slow to make those kinds of real modifications to widen those lanes that you're talking about.

Um, I mean, let's just start with the profession side and then, then we can talk about like their excitement or maybe their, um, you know, maybe they're, they're scared of, of how fast technology's changing. I don't know. Um, but, but with the profession side of things, right? Things do, do move slowly and I'm sure you're pretty honest with them about that.

But like, I mean, how. How real is that to them and, and what is, what are they saying about that side of things? Like going into the profession and just being like, what do you mean they're still doing it like that? What do you like, like I see this happening at the grocery store. Like that's, that is like, they're, they can pivot quicker than, you know, than, than profession.

Like, like, and, and their excitement going into that probably wanes a little bit. I'm, I'm curious to hear what they're, what you're thinking. This, these were not topics that I thought about at all when I went to go work,

Joseph Lucido: Yep.

Evan Troxel: now, like, we're all connected. The internet has literally changed the game when it comes to all this stuff.

Um, but I don't feel like firms necessarily, um, because of who's in charge and, and they've been around for a long time. Think about it like that. Right. And, and I'm curious like what, what that, what that's like for these students.

Joseph Lucido: I, I think students, well just like, I mean, okay, I'm gonna date myself a little bit here, but, but just like when we were in school and we just started using CAD and then it became kind of a BIM BIM modeling, and then it became kind of like a SketchUp modeling, and then we started using like. Studio Max to do renderings and it took all night and you'd open up your machine and you realized it timed out and tears.

Evan Troxel: Yep.

Joseph Lucido: we bring all this technology into the firms, right? So what hap what's happening is the same exact things. Adaptive generative design is coming into the firms, through students high barss, coming into the firms, through students cove analysis, um, uh, insights, Autodesk Insights coming into the firms through schools.

Because when you're at a firm, don't have time to look at a new bit of software

Evan Troxel: I

Joseph Lucido: how is it gonna lace into that workflow that you and your whole team has already assembled. It

Evan Troxel: absolutely, yeah.

Joseph Lucido: disruptor to come in and say, oh, I'm already done. And you're like, what do you mean you're already done?

Oh, I use this software right here. That's done. Is it right? Well, lemme check on it. So it is kind of right, but you need to tweak this. So it's that it, I think it's gonna always start stemming from the academic environment. Trying these things out first, uh, and then dropping them into firms, and some firms adopting them, some firms don't.

I think that's kind of how this world will start to change faster, you know,

Evan Troxel: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: there is so much liability on the line and there is so much, um, you know, uh, cost in buildings, it can't change too fast.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: but we are seeing an accelerated push. We can even look at 3D printing buildings right now.

I mean, that didn't exist when we were in school. But there you

Evan Troxel: Right.

Joseph Lucido: 3D printed buildings. So once again, it's gonna start really forcing the hand of our professionals to start to move a little bit faster, stems from the academic environment.

Evan Troxel: I I had a recent conversation which will have been posted before this one, so I think it'll make sense for, for the audience. But, uh, and, uh, we talked about an AI first practice and kind of the, the modern potential for that and also the reality of it. I mean, this actually is something you, you keep mentioning Cove and, and Patrick Chopin from Cove, who's one of the co-founders there, they, they've actually expanded their offerings to an AI first architectural practice.

So they still do their sustainability consulting that they've been doing with Cove for a long time. Obviously they've built the software, um, but now they're taking all that expertise, having consulted with thousands and thousands of teams out there and, and taken all of that and put it into. Developing their own practice and using AI is kind of the fundament, the foundational layer of tooling when it comes to delivering and arming their architects that they're hiring, like, you know, experienced architects to give them the most leverage possible, to have better designs that they get to spend more time on personally because they're letting the technology do kind of the heavy lifting and the more redundant, you know, rote work that, that all projects have involved.

It seems to me like the students have the opportunity to rethink how they want to practice. I mean, obviously there's like this whole avenue of going and working for so, you know, different sized firms and gaining different experiences and really filling that out and kind of understanding where they might want to fit into the profession.

And then there's like this other path now, like this didn't, I don't think this existed five or 10 years ago. Right? Not at all. And not maybe less than that. Right. And it's like, wow, I can do something completely different now. And I'm curious if your students are, are aware of that, that that potential is there, are you guys telling them that that's there and that, that that's a viable, a real viable option for them?

Joseph Lucido: Oh yeah, we, we certainly address it. Um, we actually have a class dedicated to it. It's, um, ARC 200 Advanced Visualization and Design. And the first assignment we do is we research about 14 of the most visceral projects, you know, um, the, uh, Jewish museum in Berlin, uh, the, you know, nine 11 memorial, uh, the Vietnam Memorial.

Um,

Evan Troxel: Like emotional,

Joseph Lucido: this just,

Evan Troxel: things?

Joseph Lucido: yeah, the

Evan Troxel: Gotcha.

Joseph Lucido: your heart. Um, and then I have them prompted. Just prompt it, prompt everything you can. If AI is gonna come for our jobs, great. Prompt it. And then we post up all these projects. So this is the Vietnam memorial that was built, this was the AI version of that particular memorial, uh, this Jewish museum in Berlin, Daniel Eskin.

This is the, the, the AI version. And we talk about what is the difference? Are we applying a motion to something? Did the architect grab our soul? How did they grab our soul to make something so visceral? And can the AI do that now yet we've seen, I haven't seen anything that does that, nor does students ever see anything that really is that powerful.

But there is something magical about looking at something that can create emotions. So I guess that goes back to the AI generative firm, right? It's easy to build a form. I, I think the form is the low hanging fruit. It is a challenge to embed the meaning and the understanding of the community that it's interlaced with and,

Evan Troxel: Sure

Joseph Lucido: dialogue.

Still has to be pulled through

Evan Troxel: I.

Joseph Lucido: lens. Uh, we, when you work in the, in the, when you work in an environment that is culturally dynamic, how do you address it? Right? Um, that's the architect's role is to address it, right? So

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: I, I wish everybody who pulls into that arena the best. And I think having the machine do a lot of the more mundane work is a powerful use of that machine.

that napkin sketch, that slowing it down that, why am I doing this

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Lucido: still is the human component that can't replace, hopefully,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: Well, I mean, I mean, even to your example, right? With those types of projects that you're talking about, like you, they have to be, you have to be there. You have to go to them to like looking at an image of. The Jewish museum or the Vietnam Memorial is not the same as going there and putting your hand on the memorial and putting some paper over it with some graphite and, and like transferring, uh, you know, somebody's name onto a piece of paper and, and seeing the roses.

And, um, I'm, I'm just thinking like, I, you know, it's interesting. Patrick's version of this AI first team is like really experienced architects being empowered by the technology to produce architecture. And that is very different than a student going out and who hasn't had those experiences on the project nor actually going to those things and, and you know, getting a client over all those hurdles and getting the a HJ over all those hurdles to get there and to actually build the thing and the contractor and going through ca and all those things.

That experience brings to the richness of the next project, right? And, and then rinse and repeat and doing that over and over, and building a career, doing that to get to that level of understanding. Um, but it is interesting to think about how much quicker we can get to certain points in those timelines with technology and not, not just for speed, but but so that there's more experiences like that, right?

Like I think, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about architecture. The 1%, you know, it's for the 1%, right? Like capital A architecture is for the 1%. What if it could be a lot bigger percent than that? And to me, you have to have a mindset of willingness to go there. And I think that that starts in students once again, right?

It's like, well, you don't have to do it the way that I did it to get there. You even though a lot of our, I. Profession is built on that. No, you have to do it the way I did it. Right? And you have to go through those, those, those same hurdles that I did And experience the same things that I did. I, don't think it's like that anymore, but we need that mindset to shift starting with students now.

And it just seems like there's this whole new layer of potential that exists out there that, again, didn't exist five years ago that I I'm just really curious to see what happens with this profession.

Joseph Lucido: I, I would love to talk to that team as well because as they develop something new teaching tools need to come into play. We can't give

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Joseph Lucido: without saying, these are the fundamental. Formulas behind that calculation, right? So we can't give the students a Ferrari and say, now go drive, right?

So these students are gonna walk into future firms and we need to have a academic and environment that responds or teaches or prepares the students to walk into this new digital environment for an office

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: Uh, and, and I would love to talk to them about that because maybe that's what we need to look at.

We need to

Evan Troxel: I.

Joseph Lucido: know, reverse engineer this and say, if you want them to get to this point in this new version of an architectural office, then what are the tools that we need to teach them? What are the pitfalls that they need to start looking for? What is the critical thinking that they need to address?

So when

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: software gives us a potentially wrong answer, there still driving the, the, the Ferrari, so to speak.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I mean that, that, that, and I guess what we can end, we can end with this, but that. You've gotta know where you're going to get there. Right? And, and there's a new version of where the profession is going. I feel like, and at least there's a really high potential for that to be true. And a lot of school is preparing people for the old version of architecture, right?

Or the way that it's been done before and the way that it was, maybe not even the way that it is. And so I know you guys have a lot of these kind of strategic partnerships with firms, and you're talking with them about what they need. And again, I think like maybe a lot of times they don't treat their own business as the design problem that it actually is, right?

They, they only see the projects as the design problem, but the business is a design problem. And the way that we do business and the, the way that we plug into the world is a design problem and that value that we can deliver. And so it is a great.

point that you bring up. It's like we, we need these quote unquote AI first architecture firms like Cove to also now.

Put into the feedback loop, right. To create the flywheel that needs to happen, man, A lot, a lot of cliches right there. Sorry about that.

Joseph Lucido: we're

Evan Troxel: But, but it's, but they, these, these visual analogies kinda help me, but it, it's like you, you do need that feeding back into the system to, to get momentum going for these types of outcomes that we're talking about so that we're not just feeding people into the system for the way that it.

used to be done.

Right. And, and to me as a student, like, oh ma, they should be demanding that.

Joseph Lucido: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's, let's do that. Let's get them in the room one day and we'll talk about what is the future of an architectural, uh, classroom looks like. And maybe the, you know, we, we add to the pro prac, we add to the studio, we add to this, we add to that maybe there's things that we need to start prompting that we have to learn how to prompt.

Or

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: starts to do structural analysis, there needs to be a conversation with a structural engineer of, can I rely on this? Or how do we all as a building community, look at that building? as you know, these, you know, generative design tools start to come into play, right? I would hate to rely on my structural engineer when they say, oh yeah, we had the software just calculate and I'm sure it's good enough, right?

So there's this kind of relationship between

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Joseph Lucido: that have to say, well, wait a second, just because the architect's doing it, are we all on board? I mean, was my MEP team members on board the software gave me a, a generative fill for the overall space planning? Does it work? Did I talk to the interior designer?

Is there enough, you know, of the programmatic needs that the client wanted? Right? So there is this community conversation that has to happen as well.

Evan Troxel: It's, it's interesting to think about the technology still having to respond in with the real world constraints of existing way that contracts are done, existing way that projects are delivered, existing way that insurance works, existing way, that, and, and none of those things are changing very quickly either, right?

And so it's like there's the re there's this layer now that we're talking about this interface of maybe a new way to practice, but still playing within the existing rules of all of those other things that are outside of our control, which we should have influence on, right? We should be at the table guiding those policies and the way that those things work.

But then there's the next version of that, and then there's the next version of that. And, and to me, like that's, you know, obviously there's a lot of room for improvement here. There's a lot of room for evolution in, in all of this. And, uh, it does seem like these are legitimate conversations and I would love to know if they're happening.

I would love to help facilitate those happening. But these are the things that, you know, my mind starts moving into as we like, okay, we saw a glimpse, but there's this whole other world, you know, behind that door, I think.

Joseph Lucido: And it opens up so many questions too. When the software's wrong, who's liable? Right? Um, when, when that software generated that beautiful building, do you accept that award on its behalf? Do you where there, I mean, there's so many wonderful conversations that we can have in an academic environment and that will foster a, a, a great opportunity for them to grow into this profession.

Whether it's doing a, a more, um, complex design work, whether it's something that becomes more construction methodology, wherever they decide to go in this profession. Uh, getting 'em all at the table, uh, the practitioners, the students, uh, the academics instead, kind of all figuring out where does this thing lead us to?

It's gonna be really interesting in the next couple years.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Well, Joseph, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for kind of taking us behind the scenes of what's going on in community college academics And how that leads into universities in the workforce. Uh, it, it sounds like you guys are really, again, intentional about what's going on there, and I, I appreciate you taking the time to tell us about it today.

Joseph Lucido: And as always, I invite you out to Palor College. I know you're in LA so you're not too far from San Diego, so come on down. I would love to have it give you a tour of the space and uh, if there's ever any way I can be part of the program, again, just reach out anytime.

Evan Troxel: Thanks, Joseph.