185: ‘Radical Transparency’, with Robert Yuen

TRXL 185: ‘Radical Transparency’, with Robert Yuen

Evan Troxel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the TRXL Podcast. I'm Evan Troxel, and in this episode I welcome back Robert Yuen. Robert is the CEO and co-founder of Monograph, a company on a mission to radically transform the business of architecture. As a trained architect turned entrepreneur, Robert has spent years focused on building tools that help architects run better businesses.

And in this episode. We go deep on one of monograph boldest moves, yet the publication of their latest benchmark report. It's a fantastic resource for our industry, and I've included a link to the free download in the show notes if you'd like to grab your own copy. In this conversation, we explore the topics of radical transparency, data-driven decision making, and how financial literacy can elevate both individual careers and firm-wide performance. Robert breaks down why most industry reports are flawed, how monograph is using real-time anonymized data to shift the narrative and why understanding metrics like revenue per employee [00:01:00] and utilization rate is essential for the future of practice.

We also discuss the challenges of shifting firm culture. How transparency can empower project teams and the steps firms can take today to align around sustainable growth. One of the key themes from this episode is that transparency in architecture must become the new standard. For too long, critical aspects of practice like project financials, performance benchmarks, and even salaries have remained hidden or vague, leaving teams disconnected from the real constraints and opportunities in the business.

Robert makes the case that radical transparency isn't just a nice to have. It is the foundation for healthier, more resilient firms.

Whether you're an emerging designer or a firm leader, this conversation offers a compelling look at why open access to data and firm performance is essential for aligning teams increasing profitability and empowering everyone to do their best work. As scary as that might sound. And if you [00:02:00] stick around until the end, I'll come back to the theme and break it down more to wrap things up, as always, there is a robust list of additional resources and links in the show notes. Paid TRXL+ members will see them right in your podcast app and free listeners can head over to TRXL.Co to access the full list. If you find value in this episode, please consider sharing it with your colleagues and network. You can also join the conversation on LinkedIn where I'll have a post about it or you can leave a comment on YouTube. I always love hearing your feedback and I love seeing the back and forth between the listeners.

This one is packed with actionable insights and big picture thinking, so let's get into it. Without further ado, I bring you my conversation with Robert Yuen.

Robert Yuen, welcome back to the TRXL podcast. I, I was looking at my notes the last time we talked was April, the last time your episode came out. And you've been on twice before, was in June of last year, so it's been a while.

Robert: Oh my God.

Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: [00:03:00] last time we talked, um, I was looking up some of my notes and we talked about prioritizing culture and purpose in, in the organization and embracing transparency and feedback, which I think you have. Honed in on even more, and we're gonna talk about that today,

Robert: Yes.

Evan Troxel: focusing on employee wellbeing.

So work life balance, and I think one of the things you were talking about was four day work weeks was one of the big things back then. And then investing in continuous learning, I'm sure all of this kind of plays into. What I've seen you be touting recently, which is this, I, we need to bring, we, the royal, we need to bring radical transparency to this industry.

So welcome back to the show and let's dive right into this. This, uh, this, this is a really pointed topic.

Robert: Well, thank, thanks for having me. I'm all yours. Like, uh, thank you again for hosting and I want to be, uh, a huge supporter for your audience and let's have a good time.

Evan Troxel: let's start off with the benchmark [00:04:00] and just tell us kind of what it is and, and how you guys put this together.

Robert: So the benchmark was, was an idea, and this is our second version. Really, really proud of it. Um, as our customer base grows and the success of Monograph continues to grow, I think it's really, really important for the industry to have some type of benchmark of what an industry and firm size and firm typologies.

What performance looked like across the board. This is from a firm wide performance down to an individual architect and designer performance from total revenue down to like revenue per, per employee, uh, from payment durations to utilization rates. What's amazing is instead of running a survey, uh, which I believe is almost always flawed in a lot of ways, if you ask someone for their opinion or opinion, is it's usually based on an opinion and not facts.

Uh, we are in a really unique position where we can say, let's look at our customers, um, and let's anonymize that [00:05:00] data and let's report back to the world in terms of like how our customer base is doing. Uh, what's fascinating is we can see amazing trends that happen over time, especially from the day a customer starts, uh, to a, a moment.

That data, uh, customer matures into a one year customer, two year customer, three year customer. And then since there are other reports out there, like a i a, um, we can also compare our customer base to what other, uh, other industries and other organizations have published.

Evan Troxel: And so when you talk about these other types of organization, publications that have come out, do you know how they're obtaining their data? Is it survey, is it a combination of that plus data? Maybe a link with Dell Tech, for example? I don't know.

Robert: Yeah, so like, I think, I think a lot of the industry is very familiar with AI's, like monthly business report, um, that that is a survey. Um,

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: which I'm very, I'm almost always very skeptical 'cause if you catch [00:06:00] someone on a good day, like the business is doing really, really well. If you catch someone on a bad day, maybe the business is not doing so well.

Um, and I would much rather look at the industry's performance based on a data set that's not, not rooted on an opinion or a survey. Uh,

Evan Troxel: so the data that's in your report comes directly through monograph,

Robert: correct.

Evan Troxel: people are using to run their business, right? So,

Robert: correct.

Evan Troxel: explain a little bit more about like who and, and not firm names obvious. Obviously that's anonymized, but like the, give us an idea of what, kind of participating in this so that we, we understand that.

Robert: Yeah. So we have a customer base and we have customers that are as small as solar practitioners and as large as firm sizes of a hundred employees. We generally don't have any customers that are larger than a hundred. And our running average customer size is right around 10 employees.

Evan Troxel: Okay.

Robert: So, and that gives us, I think that gives [00:07:00] everyone a general idea of like, our customer base is pretty wide, but the meat of our customer base is firm sizes that employ anywhere between five to about 15 and a running average around 10.

Evan Troxel: Okay. And that, so that falls kind of within this metric that I've heard, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but that 80, 90 something percent, it's a high percentage of the profession, is firms in the one to 10.

Robert: Correct.

Evan Troxel: number.

Robert: Yes.

Evan Troxel: Okay.

Robert: a big reason why we focus exactly where we focus.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Robert: 'cause it's where, where I believe, and where the team believes we can add the most value. Um, I think there's. There's a problem when, um, I'll, I'll, I'll use a i a for example, if your dataset is coming primarily through De Dell Tech and Dell Tech's customer base is primarily super large.

It is, it isn't really a good representation of the industry considering that it's already a very small subset of the industry uses Del Tech. Uh,

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: very [00:08:00] small subset of the industry are large firms where almost 90% of the industry is small. Um, and they're not. So there's, there's two different sets of problems.

One, you're surveying, which is, I don't believe is the right way to look at analyzing and understanding a market trend without actually looking at the data. The second problem is you're serving the wrong people to describe an entire industry. Um, you should, like, if you are gonna really take a good understanding of the industry, knowing that 90% is small firms, you should be looking at the small firms.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Robert: But then, then Dell Tech wouldn't be the right, um,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Robert: wouldn't be the right organization to be gathering that data.

Evan Troxel: Interesting. So idea of kind of a representative cross section doesn't really exist. And I think the other thing that, that I take away from what you just said with the reports that come out from a i a is that then it is displayed as data when it comes from survey material. And, so then it [00:09:00] becomes, it, you know, if it looks like it's in a chart, it looks like, oh, we can really rely on this as information to base our, know. on, for example. Um, so I think that that's kind of a real big differentiator. It's a very important point about the report that you're talking about having created with monograph versus some of the other stuff that's available out there.

Robert: I, I truly believe that like, I think, I think a lot of the industry have been making a lot of really important decisions. For almost our entire life as an architect and engineering profession on data that is unreliable.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: Um, which is really, really bad because then it, it almost assumes that you're gonna make the wrong decision.

'cause like you're making decisions off of data that's not correct.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, and I think, I think the topics come up even on this, you know, with between the two of us before about, you know, there's a lot of fiction in time tracking in offices, right. Which people are then using to, I.

Robert: yes.[00:10:00]

Evan Troxel: Talk about future performance on projects, how you sell your design services, how much, how you break that back into phases, how much time things should take to do, how you staff those projects and, and like you say, if you start off with bad foundation and you build all that on top of it, then it's very difficult to have a successful outcome.

Robert: It, it's near impossible. Like let's say you pour the foundation for a single family, but you want to put a hundred story tower on top of that foundation, it's not gonna work. Uh, it's just, it was never, it was never designed to work. 'cause there your foundation was fundamentally, um, not appropriate.

Evan Troxel: Right.

Robert: So I.

Tracking the right data, using the right data, and then making synthesis and analytical decisions off of that is really, really important. But it starts with using the right set of information first. Um, if not, you're still gonna make decisions, but you're making decisions on, on the incorrect set of, of information.

Evan Troxel: Right. So when you, when [00:11:00] you are using data from monograph to build this report, are firms opting into this? I, you know, you talked about anonymizing it, so I'm just curious, do they know you're using this information to then start to build this conversation around radical transparency? Like you have this big picture vision.

I want,

Robert: Yep.

Evan Troxel: for you to explain that, but also maybe just this deci how, how you got to be able to do this.

Robert: So I think, I think it's our responsibility if we're one, it's our responsibility of building an amazing product to help architectural firms be extraordinarily successful. And we can measure if we're successful by looking at if our customers are doing better then when they were not a customer.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, sure.

Robert: and as long as they're doing better, I think we're doing a great job of building a world-class product.

Um, second. I think when everyone, when our customers opt in to buy the product, they're presented with terms of service and it's there that, like, look, we have, we have to look at your data. Uh, we have to use your data to [00:12:00] continue to make the product better. We use that data to figure out where we want to continue to improve our product roadmap and how we make decisions on our product roadmap.

Um, but I think it's also our responsibility to anonymize that data and report back to the industry. Um, so even if you're not a monograph customer, at least there's. There's a data set out there that's rooted on true data, not opinions and not surveys, uh, for the industry to respond to and, and kind of model against.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, and, and this idea of actually using it so that people can. Know what's going on outside of their organization and be able to compare themselves

Robert: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: other data that exists, get outside of the silo that they've been in. Right. To be able to, to have access to that, that's a big deal. Like, I mean, this, I, I am, I assume this plays directly into what you call, you know, this, this idea for bringing radical transparency to the industry. This is a huge part of that, right? Because it's like if you don't know what's, then you're just going [00:13:00] based on what somebody would say during a conversation or what they'd be willing to share behind closed doors maybe, and you don't know how that's been modified to create a perception about their firm or whatever, right?

I mean, they, this we're talking about something completely different and, and potentially new to the industry with, with this kind of information.

Robert: You and I have been in the industry for a long time. Uh, so you and I have been in some of those small rooms

Evan Troxel: Yes.

Robert: discussed revenue, where we've discussed salaries, where we've discussed cost in running a business. Um, I think, I think it's amazing that we had those discussions in the past, and I think it's a disservice that that discussion isn't more public.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: and I would love to include as much as many people as possible, the entire industry as possible. Um, 'cause I do think it's gonna move the needle. Um, and I do think if you anonymize the data, then it's, it sets as a benchmark. It's, it's a, it's a guiding post. Uh, it [00:14:00] allows you to kind of like self-reflect and know where you stand.

And if you're a high performer as an organization, that's amazing. Um, and if you're a low performer, at least you can now have a, a guiding post, a roadmap of how, what good looks like and what great looks like.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I think that right there is a really important Um, there's so many pieces of architecture that are totally opaque to people come coming into it or trying to figure out a path forward. Whether it's a new business model or a new department or, you know, there's lots of, you know, ways to do project delivery, ways to gain efficiency and productivity, and there's like. Who do you turn to? Right? How, how do you find that information? Uh, it, it, it is not, those aren't the kinds of things that we're trained in, in architecture school, right?

Robert: Correct.

Evan Troxel: lot of times we're bringing in somebody to run the business side of the operation, and then they have their limited set of experiences from the firms or whatever that they've worked for, that, that comes into that. But now you're, you're actually creating a landscape that people can look out to and, and [00:15:00] start to get those insights because a platform like yours exists. has this cross section throughout the industry to be able to use that information and raise the entire thing up if people wanna read it and participate in that.

Robert: And I'm really excited because the, the more we grow, the more our dataset becomes more of a, of an industry leading indicator. Um, and the more refined we can continue to dig in. Um. I hope one day we can say we can break things down to regions, firms within regions firm, within typologies of work, uh, firms that have specialized skill sets versus others and really start to like group and look at things at a much more micro perspective.

Um, and we'll get there. I think the larger, the more customer base that we have, the heavier the responsibility is for us to report back out.

Evan Troxel: Nice. So give us an idea of what types of things are found in the report. The report's free. We'll put a link to it in the [00:16:00] show notes so people can download that and, and read it themselves. Just give us an kind of a, the 30,000 foot overview.

Robert: Um, the 30,000 overview is generally speaking as a monograph customer. Um, you make more money and you're more efficient, um, and you make substantially more compared to a firm that's not using any tools. Um, and then you also make substantially more when, when you're compared to making, when you're using a tool that's not monograph as well.

Um, and it starts to set the tone in terms of like where total earnings might come from and how profit is really, really important for a firm. Um, considering if you're a firm owner, that salaries tend to cap out. Um, and then a lot of the potential upside for firm ownership is gonna come from your ability to produce profit, a profit margin at the end of the year.

Um, so then it really starts to highlight the conversation around what your economics look like and what your [00:17:00] efficiency looks like for, for the firm.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, well kind of substantiate that in some way? When, when, when you say that firms who use monograph are more profitable, I mean, that to me sounds like that's awesome. And why? I wanna know why. Why are they? Is it because you are. You have a door now so that you can start to change behavior in those firms and make talking about profit a priority or give us kind of some of the, the ideas that, that are that to happen.

Robert: I, I do think it's a number of different unique features here on monograph that makes it really, really much more easier. I think if I were to generalize, I'll start with. If you don't have any type of leading indicator in your business, any type of data, you're essentially making decisions blind. Um, and I do agree if you're gonna use any tools, you should do better.

Um, 'cause that will give you at least some line of sight to, to how to make decisions and [00:18:00] what to address on a week over week, month over month, quarter over quarter cadence. Uh, once we zoom in, I think we spend an absurd amount of time focused on how do we design the best product? And best is categorized by how do we serve an industry where everyone understands the world visually?

So how do we essentially make data, um, visualize what is the representational language that architects can understand and make decisions? Which is to be very honest, very, very hard to do. Um, because historically, any type of financial data is presented in a, in a language that is suited for, for bookkeeper and t someone who has a much higher financial literacy than an average architect.

Our biggest job is we already have a lot of that data. How do we make that information digestible, represent nationally in a way that architects and engineers understand? Um, 'cause if you can [00:19:00] understand it quickly, then, then you can ideally make the right decisions along the way. We take it one step lower.

Uh, I, the goal is ideally to make decisions to help an architect stay on course before you have to invoice. Uh, I was architect for a long time. One of the biggest problems is you don't really understand that there's a problem until you do an invoice. The problem with that is that might be one month, two months, six months later after doing a lot of work, before you recognize that you're off track.

Um, so there gotta be a lot of signals in the software that's tells you that today before you invoice, you are already trending in a negative direction. You should do something about it. And I think that helps a lot of our customers make smarter decisions, faster decisions. Uh, before things go completely upside down.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Right. So maybe you can [00:20:00] just talk about this idea of radical transparency, because I think what we're starting to get into is this, like what needs to change in the industry, and so you've been. A couple times now that I've seen on LinkedIn posting about we need to bring radical transparency to the industry.

And, and you've started to put up some posts that speak to that. Can you just,

Robert: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: us another overview Now, you know, the overview guy, if you can tell us kind of what, what you mean by that, because I think that could be interpreted in different ways, you know, and, and so I want to hear it straight from you.

Robert: Um, I really do mean we should talk about as much as the industry feels very comfortable talking about, uh, to make sure that we address the promise. So it could be as high level as what the firm builds. Uh, and what the firm makes all the way down to salaries, um, and expenses. So I would rather have us be completely open door and we talk about every single [00:21:00] metric and number across the board.

I also have a complete understanding that that might not be, um, let's say comfortable across.

Evan Troxel: I was gonna say, you said comfortable a minute ago and I was like, I don't know a lot of people who would be comfortable, but it, it is like, but again, it comes back to why you would want to do that, right? I mean, once you put the argument out there, it's, you can't ignore it. So

Robert: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: sorry.

Robert: I, so I, I think there are a few, I'll give you examples where I don't think the industry should spend a ton of time being super open. Um, I think salaries are a very difficult topic. Um, I think salaries are pegged to geographies. They're pegged to skill sets, and then they pegg to levels. Um, so it's actually a very hard thing to talk about publicly.

I do think you can generalize it across like, let's say roles states and like averages. Um, where I think it's really, really important is around project performance. Um, I think it's incredibly hard to ask a [00:22:00] project team that might include a project designer, project manager, project architect, a few designers and maybe a junior architect here and there, uh, to execute and work on a project without having a clear line of sight of what the financials look like.

Um, what are, why are deadlines the way they are, not just on dates, but also on the finances and what does good look like if we achieve. You know, if we work on this for the next six months or one year, um, I think we have to start there and then we have to get it right before we expand to other parts of the business.

Evan Troxel: It's interesting to think about how firms actually work when you're having this discussion, because when you talk about members of a team, they go to work to do a good job, a great job on their project.

Robert: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: They're not focused on what their performance does to directly affect the bottom line of the business.[00:23:00]

I, I am generalizing, but I think that, that, that feels right to me. Right. And so it's like I know a lot of architects who will do anything for the project

Robert: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: and have an adversarial relationship with the company they work for, right? As an example,

Robert: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: like. There is this kind of dichotomy going on, I think a lot of times where it's like the project means more than the employer a lot of times, and, and of course that's not always true, but there is kind of this, this weird relationship going on there and I. So if I'm willing to do anything for the project to be successful because my reputation is directly tied to that

Robert: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: the perception of it is right. and then maybe that has repercussions when it comes to bonus time, you know, because of performance on a project and things like that. But that's always pretty opaque in itself in these companies, right?

So, [00:24:00] um. It's like I, I know a lot of times we've sat in performance reviews and it's like, what do I need to do to get to the next level? And the answer is just keep doing what you're doing. it's like, what does that mean?

Robert: It means now,

Evan Troxel: what, what's the timeline for that?

Robert: yeah.

Evan Troxel: the next step? And like all of these things are just undefined and thrown in the bucket of like, you're doing great.

Keep doing what you're doing, because there's been such a commoditization of architects do. Because fees have gone down because project budgets are lower because they need it done faster because there are all these reasons, right? So man, like you're talking about. like a radical transformation.

Uh, I don't know that we're up for it. I'll just put my hand up and say, I, I, I, that's a, like an open question. Are we up for it? Because, um, the other argument is like, that I've heard many times is like, you can't change something that big from the inside. You gotta burn it down and start over. Right. And I'm sure you've heard that too.

And, and I don't, that's not what you're advocating for. You're advocating [00:25:00] for. transformation from within

Robert: Yes.

Evan Troxel: with the companies who already exist. So I just threw a bunch of stuff out there, but I, I'm just curious, you know, what, what that triggers for you.

Robert: So the way I look at, it's like I don't, I've never met an architect that who's an owner or an architect who, who is a full-time employee, uh, working for an organization, uh, who has the desire for the firm to not make money. I've never met an architect or an employee that says like, that is what I want for the place that I work at.

To not,

Evan Troxel: would be a charity, right? Like the, you, you can't, it doesn't work, right?

Robert: um, what I do hear a lot is I wanna do incredible work. I wanna be creative and I want the business wherever I'm working at, to be very, very successful also. And now I'll be very proud to be part of that organization. And I was like, great. Um, I think you're already halfway there, especially if the work is already good.

I think we just gotta make some of the [00:26:00] constraints a lot more transparent. And there are constraints that every project has that has been OPEC for a very long time. Uh, and we can start with the easiest ones. Uh, the easiest one is, well, what is the project budget? Um, let's, let's make sure that that's clear.

And we, we should advocate that every project does have a project budget and there's a way that we can measure against that project budget over time to help us stay on track. Um, let's work on that. Second, once you know the constraints. I need everyone to adhere to them. Uh, the constraints aren't a nice to have.

The constraints are a constraint. Um, I want ideally all of our customers across the board to be, do amazing work within the constraints of their budget so that the project can still come out. Ned positive and the firm can be very, very successful. I think when we drive those alignments, it isn't a burn, burn everything down type of move.

It is [00:27:00] more of a transformation 'cause like we're, we're halfway there and we, we see it all the time with our customers getting there on monograph. So like, I know it's absolutely possible,

Evan Troxel: Yeah, that that, when you say that, talking about like following the constraints that that's a hard thing for a lot of architects, right? Because architects by nature are kind of rule breakers. If they can't like you, you find creative workarounds. That's a nice way of saying

Robert: right?

Evan Troxel: rule breaker, right? But there's been a lot of times on. In firms working my way up through the years where it's like, uh, the rules apply to the people who are the lowest on the ladder, and the rules get broken all the time by the people who are the highest on the ladder because the rules don't apply to them a lot of times. And so when you talk about this, like it really has to apply to everybody. For that to work everybody is aligned, that the business needs to be successful so that we can continue to do our work or even get, you know, do better work, get better at it.

Robert: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: it really does have to apply to everybody because you are talking about [00:28:00] transformation and transformation can't only happen with a few people

Robert: No,

Evan Troxel: roles.

Yeah.

Robert: no. So I think if you're, if you're a young designer early in your career, the best thing you we can do for you as mono as a monograph customer is you're learning financial literacy sooner now because you're on monograph. And if you are an experienced principal and you've been working in the industry for 20, 30 years plus, um, I think this is a great tool to help you stay aligned.

Um, the objective for every firm is to do good work and do good work while also being profitable. Um, if you do good work and you're not profitable, you might not have a opportunity or a right to continue to do good work. Um, because if you're not profitable, at some point you're on your way to zero. Like, that's, it's not, that's not a good scenario.

Evan Troxel: Right.

Robert: Um, so I think it is, it is a rule that everyone should learn to follow and learn to respect. [00:29:00] Um, at the end of the day, we are, we are an industry, and the industry needs to continue to grow and we need to continue to be profitable. To invest in ourselves continuously. We cannot invest if there is nothing to invest in.

Um, so it's really, really important that, uh, the topic of money is, is talked about.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I, I think this also kind of goes back to how architects are bred, which is competitively, right?

Robert: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: There's, that happens in school and then it continues on in business, and a lot of times you'll see somebody. With the attitude that for me to win, you have to lose, and you are taking a different stance by bringing this idea of radical transparency to the industry and really talking about rising all boats, right?

Because you're talking about success for the industry, not individual customers or individual firms, because there is a lot of work to be

Robert: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: all know the built environment could. [00:30:00] Benefit from the work that architects and engineers are doing. And uh, and that's a very small percentage of the overall built environment is done by those professionals.

Right. So there, there seems to be a ton of potential here. And you are also shifting the perspective with your language, your messaging, your, your benchmarks here to say like, we are in this together. I know that sounds a bit cliched, but

Robert: We are,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Robert: we are absolutely like the, how else do we talk about the industry if we aren't in part of that industry.

Evan Troxel: Right. Yeah. okay, so let's start to talk about how this could happen. I mean, you've got. Advice in your reporter, at least you have actionable data

Robert: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: so I, I'm curious like how can firms increase revenue per employee, because that seems to be, I, I think that was one of the main talking points in, in the report, right, is like showing how [00:31:00] big of a difference there actually is in our industry of revenue per full-time employee.

Robert: Um, there's a lot of ways to increase revenue per employee. We can start to generalize it in a few things. The first thing that we see almost immediately is there's an efficiency metric that starts to immediately play out once you're a monograph customer. Um, 'cause I think once a, once a firm, once an architect understands where their time is going and where their time is not being utilized correctly, the natural chain of decisions is you stop spending time in areas where it's not effective.

Um, so the efficiency, the utilization of a per employee basis goes up. Up when that goes up, what naturally follows is the revenue per employee.

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Robert: Um, so I think it, it goes back to the original topic of as long as transparency starts to exist and starts to foster within organizations, everyone makes better [00:32:00] decisions.

Your utilization rate goes up, which means your revenue per employee also goes up.

Evan Troxel: It sounds like you're talking about accountability in there too, right? It's like, because it's so visible, I mean, it creates an awareness of the things that you're actually working on, but then it also creates an awareness of what others are working on around you, and then the accountability goes up because it's like, oh, now we're gonna make these decisions together, more or less just to say. That isn't working right. We need to

Robert: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: that. We, we need to stop doing that. We the firm. Right. So I, I'm curious of if you have examples of the kinds of, you know, things that you're talking about here. Are there, are there things that people become aware of where it's like obvious we need to stop doing that?

I.

Robert: Uh, so there's a few things we do very clearly. Like things turn red when they're not good.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I was gonna ask like, how do people know? Because everybody's already putting their time in a spreadsheet in some, you know, you can call a glorified spreadsheet even if it, if it's a spreadsheet still, right. But it's like I put these hours in and then I [00:33:00] send it to somebody and it goes into the black hole of accounting, right?

And so. To your point, like you're, you're doing something visual, bringing it back to your conversation topic about making it visual for architects, because we're so visual, we're really good at pattern recognition. I know what red means, red means bad. Right? So, so that's a great example, is very simple.

Robert: Red means bad. Green means good. These are universal languages. Um, architects, designers know this very, very well 'cause we we're trained to understand the world visually.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: Uh, so we spend a considerable amount of time of not just designing a great software, but really trying to understand what is the takeaway and how do we communicate that very effectively, very quickly.

Um, so yes, as soon as you enter time, the old way is, it goes into the ether and you never see it again. Um, what we.

Evan Troxel: someone gets a talking to right? Like that. That's kind of what, and, and you're always maybe

Robert: Yes.

Evan Troxel: worried that that's gonna happen when you hit that submit [00:34:00] button. Right.

Robert: The fascinating thing is we've, we, and we've been doing this for years now, is as soon as you enter a time, everything moves. So the feedback loop back to you is immediate, which also encourages a young designer and an architect to enter accurate time. 'cause it's like, oh my God. Like if I do put in, uh, correct.

Information I get, I get feedback immediately and by knowing that I can make decisions different, um, as a project.

Evan Troxel: conversation. Right. Right.

Robert: So I, I don't wanna wait till the end of the week to put 40 hours on a project. I might want to enter time as soon as I know I, I should be entering time. 'cause it's gonna make all the difference between me deciding to do 10 iterations or five iterations.

Um, and that decision is almost the, the very small microcosm of like a profitable employee or not. [00:35:00] Um, and they're embedded in those decisions, and we need to have an influence right before you make those decisions. And we need to surface the right information to you at the right time. Um, it's really, really important.

Evan Troxel: W. I've been through the experience many times of like staffing and forecasting

Robert: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: Right. And we talked a little bit earlier about like, if you don't have good data, it's really hard to do that right? You can't do it well. Um, it'll probably not be right. You'll just be adjusting it along the way over and over and over again. Is there a component of forecasting in the tools that you provide? Like if you pre-fill out your time sheet with what you think is gonna happen that week, for example. Can we then see, oh, here, here's where that's gonna lead us if we start doing that. Or maybe you can just kind of explain how we can start to get ahead of these problems.

Robert: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: a little bit, even more than, than kind of just entering your stuff in real time.

Robert: this is really, really exciting in terms of getting ahead on the forecasting side. [00:36:00] Um, we can start as early as when a project starts and you have a contract at hand. Uh, we've built some amazing new technology, uh, with an underlying infrastructure that's embedded on ai. That can read your contract and pre-filled the entire plan for a project instantly.

Um, so we can say, we can see how many different phases you have. We can see how long they are and how, how much each phase is, and then we can look at the entire company's staff and figure out who is the right person to work on it and start pre-filling that time in. We can also say, based on experience and based on like historical, uh, typologies of work.

Um, we can make a suggestion in how to like, think about staffing and resourcing and what that might look like for the project to be done. Um, on time and on budget.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I, I just, when you talk about kind of resources and staffing it, I worked in a large firm, and so maybe this is different in a 10 person [00:37:00] firm, um, but maybe it isn't, right. Which is like staffing is, is partly what the job is. It's partly what the skill sets needed are. It's mostly who's available, right?

It's like, it's like this weird com, like this combination, this really nuanced thing. Um, and, and so like something that I had toyed around with was coming up with a way to find out obviously what the skill sets of people are, what their staff staffing, what projects they're staffed on, what their experience is, and. Who do they want to be? I think was another important component of that. Like what do they want to do with their next step of their career? then finding opportunities based on upcoming pro projects to kind of start to link that together. But know that's asking a lot, right? But it, but it seems like, like there's gotta be, and it's interesting now, AI wasn't around, it wasn't a thing when I was. about doing that, but now that it is, maybe there's [00:38:00] additional ways to kind of link into the different systems across a business to start to align those things so that they can happen and help projects be more successful because you have the right people with the right skill and experience and availability and desires for their own career development to align with what's coming up or what's right around the corner.

Robert: So I, I do think where technology is evolving and very quickly, this is, this is very attainable. Very, very attainable. Um, and we're spending a considerable amount of our r and d efforts in making sure that we are at the forefront of that act.

Evan Troxel: So you're saying I was just, I was ahead of my time.

Robert: You are ahead of your time.

Evan Troxel: thanks, Robert.

Robert: but right now it's totally achievable. Totally.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Robert: Like, I think it's.

Evan Troxel: I mean, have you done this thing where, like there, it's been going around, like ask Chat GPT, who, who is Evan TRXL? Who is Robert Yuen and, and, and it, and out of everything you know about me, right? Tell me, tell me a story or, or [00:39:00] write up a bio or something like that.

And it's on the things that you have asked it and the things about you on the internet, it can do a pretty good job of that

Robert: Yes.

Evan Troxel: out, uh, it's, it's pretty interesting to, to your point, like it's, we're, we're at the doable stage of, of this kind of

Robert: It, it's not a dream anymore. It's totally achievable. Um, and as long as that data set is, is a very good data set, a complete data set, um, there's no reason why we can't deliver those features today and like we've already have, uh, which is incredible, and we continue to invest in that direction. Because at the end of the day, if a firm is doing amazingly well and profitable, then the next step is to make sure that architects are using the rest of your time designing, doing what you, what you, what you came into the industry doing, which is your passion to create the built environment.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: and the less administrative work I can take off your shoulders, the more time you have to be creative. Um, this is where tooling and [00:40:00] software absolutely gives you an advantage and a lever. Um, that if you didn't have your, you would be doing it manually, which, which would take up a lot of time and reduce the amount of time you have for creative freedom.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, one of the big prompts in your report. Speaking of ai, I guess, um, I, I, I just have that prompt idea of floating here, but this, this idea of, of salaries

Robert: Um hmm.

Evan Troxel: salaries and things. Maybe you can just kind of speak to the overall, the industry is when it comes to that, because you're talking about profitability, you're talking about success, and is a. An industry that chronically pays people very low wages, especially new graduates. Right. Um, there are definitely architects who make a really good living for sure. Right.

Robert: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: wouldn't say that that applies across the board and I would.

Robert: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: Also say that for the risk that is involved in architecture [00:41:00] and the complexity in all of these things, we're an underpaid industry. Can you talk about kind of, you know, going back to this idea of radical transparency and the, the relationship of, of competitiveness in salary ranges throughout the industry, kind of where we are.

Robert: so I, I think everyone who's in the industry knows that they would love to make more money. Um, and I think everyone in the industry doesn't know what the profit margins are on either the firm or on their project. I do believe that as long as you work on that margin over time, salaries go up, they're generally, they're generally capped because there isn't enough margin left to redistribute, which forces a very difficult decision for most promoters, is to keep salaries low.

'cause there isn't really any room. Left. If you look at it from an annualized budget to pull the salaries from, to increase it. So as long as the profit margins are [00:42:00] there, I believe that the salaries almost always follow. Um, and that goes back down to knowing your numbers, working towards efficiencies, um, and getting your utilization up across the board.

'cause then once you lift profit margins, those profit margins historically across all business sectors, uh, gets redistributed back to the team. Now what do we do until that happens?

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Robert: Uh,

Evan Troxel: a, that doesn't, that switch doesn't get flipped and

Robert: correct.

Evan Troxel: changes. Right.

Robert: No, it takes time. It takes time. So I think until that happens, I think it helps the entire industry just talk about, well, what does businesses make?

And what is the average employee salary across, across the industry? And have radical transparency and radical candor around what does that mean? Um. One, I believe it's gonna force the conversation around finances a lot deeper and everyone's gonna have a deeper understanding. Well, why is my salary this number?

If you ask a firm [00:43:00] owner, we'll say, well, there's is a firm size of 10, so you can multiply by 10. Then we have overhead, then we have a software spend, we have a lot of expenses. So this is like the net cost to just run the business, and then we have to essentially make that to cover and then anything extra.

Is profit and we can redistribute that profit over time, but it really starts to get everyone on the same page of, well, where does your salary come from? Why is it the way it is? And now that we're all on the same page, let's work on it. But I think it does start first, right now, today, that we at least are open and transparent in having the conversations around what are billings, what are utilizations, and what are salaries?

Evan Troxel: Yeah, it's uh, it's one of those common LinkedIn posts about. Raising salaries and then it just kind of opens the can of worms, right? Which is okay, well then firms need to make more money and we need to change contracts. [00:44:00] And a lot of kind of fundamental things about the business model, the way the profession operates, the delivery process, all of the different stakeholder groups putting pressure.

Robert: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: There's a lot that that potentially has to change. And so, you're right, it's not gonna happen quickly. Um, but at the same time, we have to know. Where we're going in order to get there, and we have to decide that that's where we want to go together. the call to action really is to have this radical transparency conversation about salaries so that we can address the actual issue, right, which is the higher level stuff that you're talking about.

Robert: Well, I think once everyone knows, then the alignment and the focus around execution becomes a lot clearer. Um, 'cause then there it's a little bit less of a debate where I don't get paid a lot because I just don't get paid a lot. It's like, well, like that's not quite how the world works. Like if the firm makes a lot of money, then like, usually there's, it trickles down across the firm.[00:45:00]

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: so you can see sometimes with the most high highest earning organizations, they also pay their employees the most, um, because that, that revenue gets redistributed across the team.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. And, and those companies are leveraging those people in really great ways to earn a profit, right? Like that's, that's exactly why they're there, right? Is to do something efficiently and faster than somebody else can do it. And it makes business sense for them to do that. So it. It's a, it is a flywheel

Robert: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: sort, right?

Robert: it is a flywheel. And I think once you have a benchmark, it's, it's much easier to then continue to work on that problem and see the games year over year. Um, 'cause then, then we all know that, oh, it is improving. We are all working on it together as an industry. And our, our average sellers are improving year over year.

Our, uh, speed to payments are improving year over year. Our utilization across the board is improving year [00:46:00] over year. Uh, and the revenue per employee is growing year over year and we, we can confidently say that year over year, we should be really, really excited as an industry and we're moving in the right direction.

Evan Troxel: It. It seems like as an employee, I mean, I don't know if it matters long you've been in the industry, but if you're asking these kinds of questions and interview because you're interviewing the firm that you could potentially be working for just as much as they're interviewing you, I. To me, those are actually really important things to understand about the firm you could potentially be signing up with,

Robert: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: to understand their business and how you, how focused are they on those kinds of metrics? How focused are they on running a profitable business? In what ways do they reward employees for, you know, com doing the thing that they're hired to do, but in order to help their business be more successful? It starts to become a much. Richer. I mean, you're not just going to a place because you like the [00:47:00] work they do as much in that scenario as you're trying to find the right fit for so at so many different dimensions of being an employee. Right? It's not

Robert: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: the work, it's about all of these things together,

Robert: well, it's a relationship and I would treat your, you know, if you are a, an individual looking for employment, um, I think you're looking for a relationship. And you should treat it like a relationship. Um, so obviously the work should look good and you should be excited about the body of work that comes out of a firm.

Um, but you should also understand that you're joining something that's a healthy relationship for you.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Robert: define what healthy means in your case. Um, but you should have a clear understanding, well, what's the right culture fit? What's healthy? What's an environment where you can learn from? Who are you gonna learn from?

Um, is the business, uh, does the business value growth? How do I participate in that growth? How do you define [00:48:00] growth? Um, these are really, really important questions as you, as you kind of like commit to joining a relationship and, and working for, for a great firm.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Is there anything that I'm missing here when it comes to kind of big topics from the benchmark report?

Robert: Um. Well, what's really, really exciting about the benchmark report is we can compare our benchmark report with other benchmark reports.

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Robert: Um,

Evan Troxel: You're going meta nice.

Robert: well, I, I think it starts to validate why, uh, I believe I'm very biased here, CEO and co-founder of Monograph. Why? I believe our product design from the bottom up, um, has always been customer centric because like the founders are all architects. Um, and our only passion is to help architects and engineers be successful, and that will never waver.

Um, and I think that results in a fantastic product over time that then [00:49:00] yields incredible results. Um, so I'll, I'll give you an example. Like I had a chance to also dig through B QEs, um, benchmark Report, and our customers get paid 65% faster because of monograph. They also make 22,000 more per employee,

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Robert: 30% more utilized.

Um, and like they're 60% less, less unbillable fees across the board. And this, these are two different customer bases, two different benchmark reports. Uh, and we win across all, across every line item. Um, and that's, that makes me really, really excited. 'cause one, it means that we are, we're doing a great job here at monograph.

Um, it also means that we are competitive, um, and we gotta continue to work on delivering amazing results for, for architects and engineers.

Evan Troxel: Nice. I think the call to action here when it comes to transparency and [00:50:00] actually. Getting a better understanding of the business of architecture, right? Like that's

Robert: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: what we're talking about here. You, you guys popularized or maybe invented, I don't know, I don't know if this is worthy of the invented title, but the hashtag practice ops, right?

And there was this, you a lot of resources that you have dedicated to educating the architectural community, the a EC community in. this stuff matters. And, and so when it comes to like the business of architecture and the evolution of the business of architecture that you're really pushing for through the starting point of transparency, I think it's really. Interesting. And I hope I, I don't know, you tell me. What's been the response so far? I know this is still early since this report came out, but these are kind of the same values that you've been touting for, for years now. Right. So what, what is the, kind of the general feedback response and, and we'll finish up with, with this.

Robert: I, so the general feedback response has been super amazing. [00:51:00] Um, and I think for those who have been following monograph for years, know that we haven't changed our position, like our jobs to make sure our customers are really, really successful financially. Um, and that will never waiver, I think, for people who are just starting to recognize some of our resources.

Um, or esthetic that this is, this is a resource that is available. Um, and I'm really proud to continue to deliver that. And the team here is really, really proud to continue to deliver that. Um, and I hope to continue to deliver that at a higher bar every, every single year.

Evan Troxel: Nice. Something just popped into my head, Robert, and

Robert: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: is maybe a weird, weird question to ask, but do you consider monograph a design tool?

Robert: Oh, wow. That's a great question. Well, we have to define the word design.

Evan Troxel: Well, I, I, I've said it many times on this podcast that like the business of architecture is a design problem, but a [00:52:00] lot of firms don't look at it like that. I.

Robert: Well, I do think of it in that way, and I think you and I have known each other for years now, and I've always thought about business as a design problem. Um, I'm a desire, I love, I want, I wanna solve problems. And I think of this as. A very clear design problem. Um, does the rest of the industry sees it that way?

Probably not to be, uh, to be very honest, probably not. Like we're not, we're not a, we're not a Autodesk product. We're not like a BIM product. We're not,

Evan Troxel: geometry product or

Robert: no.

Evan Troxel: you know, you're not

Robert: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: right? You're doing data entry, but you're getting these kind of insights and reports and making important decisions about how you design problems, unquote,

Robert: Correct.

Evan Troxel: projects. And to me, and then that way it actually is design software, but it's for the business, right?

Robert: For the business design software for the business, I, I believe in that a hundred percent. [00:53:00] Um, I also want everyone to always understand that like my focus is really like, I want to help firms be financially strong. Build a financial literacy over time. Um, be radically transparent about how a business is performing and now leave the traditional design tooling software to amazing software companies that solely focus on that.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Robert: there's a lot of incredible companies that have been around for a long time. There's a lot of companies that are very new that are doing amazing work, around three dimensional geometry in the browser, uh, revolutionizing tech in that space. That is not my focus. Um, my focus really comes down to a financial number, uh, that I really want to help the industry grow and a conversation around financial literacy that I want to continue to foster.

Evan Troxel: All right, so we won't be modeling and monograph this

Robert: No, no.

Evan Troxel: modeling, but maybe some financial modeling

Robert: Yes.

Evan Troxel: project modeling. Well, Robert, there's been a great conversation. [00:54:00] I'll put a link to the report, the benchmark report in the show notes for this episode for those who are interested in seeing the current status of Outlay in our industry. I mean, it's, it's really an interesting piece of work that you guys have put together and made available to everybody, and so kudos to you for taking on the hard work. I think the la the name of the last episode was you, you've basically signed up to do the hard things in this industry and, uh,

Robert: That is one of our values.

Evan Troxel: Yep, the work continues, so thanks, Robert.

Robert: Thank you.

Evan Troxel: Alright, let's wrap this up. During the introduction to this episode, I said that transparency in architecture must become the new standard. My guest today, Robert Yuen, supported this with several examples during our conversation.

Number one, opaque financials lead to misalignment. He points out that most architects, especially those working on project teams, are disconnected from the financial [00:55:00] realities of the projects they're working on. They focus on design quality, but rarely understand budget constraints, fee structures, or what success looks like financially.

Robert says it's incredibly hard to ask a project team to execute and work on a project without having a clear line of sight of what the financials look like. Without that transparency, teams can unknowingly over deliver, blow through budgets, or miss the mark entirely on firm goals.

Number two, bad data equals bad decisions. he highlights that many firms still base key business decisions on survey data or fictional time tracking, which are often inaccurate and misleading. He said you're making decisions off of data that's not correct. It's near impossible to succeed if you start off with a bad foundation.

Transparency allows firms to base decisions on real objective and timely data essential for making smart, sustainable choices. Three. Transparency creates accountability by exposing how time is spent and how projects [00:56:00] are performing in real time.

For example, using the red and green visual indicators that we talked about during the episode. As pattern recognition, team members are empowered to course correct early. This provides an immediate feedback loop that encourages staff to enter accurate time because they see how it changes things right away. this immediacy builds a culture of accountability and continuous improvement. Number four, it levels the playing field. Robert criticizes traditional industry reports that reflect only the largest firms leaving out 90% of the profession made up by small firms. He said, you're surveying the wrong people to describe an entire industry. Almost 90% of the industry is small transparency.

Through anonymized real-time data offers a more representative benchmark that all firms, especially small ones, can use to measure and improve. Number five, transparency fosters equity and growth. When employees understand how profit is generated and how their work contributes to it, they're better positioned to advocate for themselves and [00:57:00] align with firm's success.

Robert believes that as long as you work on that margin over time, salaries go up. But it starts first with being open and transparent without visibility into firm performance. Conversations around salaries, bonuses, and promotions remain vague and subjective. Last one here. Number six. It's the only path to evolving the profession.

Robert's long-term goal is to improve financial literacy in the profession and empower architects to make better business decisions because design alone isn't enough to sustain practice. The objective for every firm is to do good work and to do good work while also being profitable. Transparency is what enables the shift transforming the profession from one rooted in secrecy and tradition to one grounded in clarity, empowerment, and shared success.

So in conclusion, transparency must become the new standard because it aligns teams around reality, not fiction. It reduces inefficiency and waste. [00:58:00] It unlocks equity and growth opportunities, and it enables informed collaborative transformation across the industry.

Okay, that's it for this one. Remember, I love reading your comments, so leave one over on LinkedIn for my post for this episode, or on YouTube, and I'll see you in the next one.